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Old 04-16-2004, 03:12 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!


again, i don't see how you could argue hakeem was on par offensively. there's just not much to justify it.
Kobe Bryant wasn't very close to Tracy McGrady in scoring, but would you say it's unreasonable to say Bryant was an equivalently good offensive weapon? I wouldn't say that.

There are different factors that come into play.

One is era, as you note. Another is pace...some teams play at a much greater pace up and down the floor, which can lead to easier scores (as well as more points given up). Abdul-Jabbar played a great deal of his career with the Showtime Lakers, while Olajuwon played in mostly half-court set teams with the Rockets.

That's why I'm not big on the stats from across eras. While they did overlap, I'd say Olajuwon's prime was in the '90s, while Abdul-Jabbar's was in the '70s and '80s.

Had Olajuwon played his prime during the go-go-little-defense era of the '80s, in Showtime, for a decade, I think his numbers would look very different.

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i agree that defensively, stats don't tell a complete story. but kareem was a dominant shot-blocker, he was athletic, he was very good defensively, at his peak.
I agree with you. All the top five or six centers of all-time had dominant defensive periods or even careers. I feel that Olajuwon was the best and significantly better than Abdul-Jabbar.
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:28 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!


Kobe Bryant wasn't very close to Tracy McGrady in scoring, but would you say it's unreasonable to say Bryant was an equivalently good offensive weapon? I wouldn't say that.
he shot a lower %, and was on a much worse team.

kareem scored more, shot a much higher %, on great teams (that he made great).

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There are different factors that come into play.

One is era, as you note. Another is pace...some teams play at a much greater pace up and down the floor, which can lead to easier scores (as well as more points given up). Abdul-Jabbar played a great deal of his career with the Showtime Lakers, while Olajuwon played in mostly half-court set teams with the Rockets.

That's why I'm not big on the stats from across eras. While they did overlap, I'd say Olajuwon's prime was in the '90s, while Abdul-Jabbar's was in the '70s and '80s.

Had Olajuwon played his prime during the go-go-little-defense era of the '80s, in Showtime, for a decade, I think his numbers would look very different.
kareem's prime was in the early-mid 70s. showtime, he was past his prime, albeit still great. we're still talking peak, right?
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:31 PM   #123 (permalink)
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My list, based on team sucess and pure individual dominance

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Bill Russell
6. Moses Malone
7. George Mikan
8. Bill Walton
9. David Robinson
10. Patrick Ewing
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:35 PM   #124 (permalink)
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There are some great arguments going on here but I like to interject and give my thoughts on Hakeem.

Hakeem was the BEST center I have ever seen live hands down. So that doesn't include Wilt or Russell since I was not born during that era but I have seen enough footage of them to acknowledge they are legends. But back to Hakeem.

Hakeem to me was kind of a myriad of Wilt and Russell. Taking some strengths of one while mixing it with the strengths of the other.

At his offensive peak, Hakeem was unstoppable. He sported a combination of post moves that at times he made opponents HYPNOTIC. Heck he induced people who watched him live or on TV to become disoriented. (You know there is a reason why they call him the Dream.) His combination of post moves puts Duncan to shame and Duncan is incredible. No one could guard Hakeem...no one. He was both finesse and strength in the post. Offensively skill wise I say he was as good as Kareem. In fact, I can't even separate the two...forget the stats. Stats are deceiving...look at skills. Hakeem's skill set for a center is second to none, offensively and defensively.

Hakeem is easily...EASILY the best post defender I have ever seen. He was simply Russell-esque. Honest. Go look at Russell tapes and compare him to Hakeem. Russell was a little quicker but Hakeem was equally as intimidating. I have seen Hakeem block shots while trailing an opponent's fastbreak. The only other center I have ever seen that (or could do it consistently) was Russell and at times David Robinson. Stat wise Hakeem is the only player ever to achieve 200 blocks and 200 steals in one season. The leading shotblocker of alltime...2162 career steals (easily the best for any center - David Robinson is 2nd with 1387). If I was picking my all-time defensive team Hakeem would be standing beside Russell.

So how great is Hakeem in comparison to his giant peers? Skill wise Hakeem is #2 in my books behind only Wilt...holding all variables constant. Obviously if you want to judge by careers Kareem should be placed higher...6 MVPs...how can you argue with that? You can't and that is why on all the Greatest of All-time lists Kareem is placed higher and RIGHTFULLY so.

So how do you judge? Do you judge purely based on legacy? Skill set? Championships? Accolades? Stats? I can only go by what I have seen and therefore the easiest way to judge Hakeem is against the players he played against.

Hakeem played in arguably the most talented big man era of all-time. Just look at the names he played against and then look at the result. What you will find is that he beat all of his competition. Name it. He beat Ewing, David Robinson, Shaq, Brad D...all the prime time centers of his era. He not only beat them, he DOMINATED when it counted. Ask Ewing in the 93 Finals...ask Robinson a year later. Sure Shaq was young and actually averaged more boards and only 2 points less than Hakeem in the finals but there was no question who was more dominant. But as I also admitted, Shaq wasn't in his prime. But Hakeem to me was more impressive (especially skill set wise) in his prime even when compared to Shaq five years later (when he reached his prime).

Like I said, skill set wise Hakeem was and is second to none as far as centers are concern. Well...at least second to Wilt who is IMO the greatest center of all-time (no question about that). If you take legacy and other externalities which are outside of a player's core skill set into account of course Kareem and Russell would precede Hakeem. But if I was force to pick a team today and right now...Hakeem would be my 2nd center. A choice I would make with NO hesitation.
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:44 PM   #125 (permalink)
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i don't see why with hakeem the stats are deceiving and it's the skills that matter. his skill at putting the ball in the basket are behind kareem's. his skill at passing the ball is surely behind kareem. get passed the hypnotic, the dazzling skills, and you've got a great offensive player, but not an unprecendented one, by any stretch. if i needed a basket, i'd unquestionably throw the ball into kareem in the post before i give it to hakeem. he was taller, better at getting a good shot off, and had an unblockable offensive weapon. i just don't see the argument for hakeem, not offensively.
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:45 PM   #126 (permalink)
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if i had to throw the ball into the post to a single player hoping to get an immediate basket out of it, i'd pick shaq, personally.
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Old 04-16-2004, 03:50 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
i don't see why with hakeem the stats are deceiving and it's the skills that matter. his skill at putting the ball in the basket are behind kareem's. his skill at passing the ball is surely behind kareem. get passed the hypnotic, the dazzling skills, and you've got a great offensive player, but not an unprecendented one, by any stretch. if i needed a basket, i'd unquestionably throw the ball into kareem in the post before i give it to hakeem. he was taller, better at getting a good shot off, and had an unblockable offensive weapon. i just don't see the argument for hakeem, not offensively.
Like I said how people judge a player is all subjective. Hakeem is 2nd in my books and nothing will ever change that. No disrespect to Kareem (look at my avatar) but Hakeem was out of this world. Also stats don't tell the whole truth. If so David Robinson should be ranked top 5 in everyone's lists. At his peak Robinson averaged 30 ppg, 14 rpg, 4 bpg, and 3 spg in a very dominant big man era.
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Old 04-16-2004, 06:07 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!


Like I said how people judge a player is all subjective. Hakeem is 2nd in my books and nothing will ever change that. No disrespect to Kareem (look at my avatar) but Hakeem was out of this world. Also stats don't tell the whole truth. If so David Robinson should be ranked top 5 in everyone's lists. At his peak Robinson averaged 30 ppg, 14 rpg, 4 bpg, and 3 spg in a very dominant big man era.
i wouldn't argue too hard against picking hakeem over kareem overall at peak value, although i'd still go with kareem. i don't, however, think the argument for hakeem offensively is too strong in comparison to kareem. in fact, i think kareem clearly has an edge. i think an honest assessment of overall offensive skills, in a addition to stats, bear that out.

the difference with robinson, is that he didn't have as good a post game, and when his team needed big baskets, he didn't necessarily have a go-to move, or much to rely on in a grind out half court set. he got his in the flow of a game. kareem, on other hand, was the greatest post threat ever, with the greatest go-to move ever. he had the post game, the go-to game, the feel for the game, in addition to the mind numbing numbers. there's little argument against him (as opposed to robinson). i just don't see where hakeem would have an advantage offensively. the numbers just bear that out, but an assessment of skill does as well, imo.

now, defensively, i'd certainly give hakeem the nod overall, and that makes it a tougher debate overall. but i'm not buying the offensive argument. it's just not very supportable, imo.
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Old 04-16-2004, 11:13 PM   #129 (permalink)
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kareem, on other hand, was the greatest post threat ever, with the greatest go-to move ever.
I've heard many experts say that Olajuwon's "dream shake" was every bit the go-to move that Abdul-Jabbar's "sky hook" was. Many have branded it among the greatest offensive weapons in history.
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Old 04-16-2004, 11:22 PM   #130 (permalink)
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I've heard many experts say that Olajuwon's "dream shake" was every bit the go-to move that Abdul-Jabbar's "sky hook" was. Many have branded it among the greatest offensive weapons in history.
What I don't understand is if Olajuwon's post moves are the best ever, then when didn't he score more and at a more efficient rate? His statistics seem somewhat "low" for someone who possesses such an explosive offensive move.
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Old 04-16-2004, 11:35 PM   #131 (permalink)
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What I don't understand is if Olajuwon's post moves are the best ever, then when didn't he score more and at a more efficient rate? His statistics seem somewhat "low" for someone who possesses such an explosive offensive move.
"More" could have to do with the scheme. The Rockets played a lot of post-and-kick half court offense that was popularized greatly in the '90s. They had guys like Mario Elie, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell and Kenny Smith shooting off of Olajuwon post passes after he drew the double-team.

As far as efficiency, he's a career .512 shooter which doesn't seem unreasonable, especially when you consider that his career percentage is dragged down by his rather poor end of career, when he had 4 of his final 5 seasons under 50% shooting. He also shot more jumpers than most centers, including Abdul-Jabbar.
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Old 04-17-2004, 02:07 AM   #132 (permalink)
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My top 10 of all-Time:
1-Chamberlain
2-Kareem
3-Shaq
4-Hakeem
5-Russell. Could have been higher if we knew what he could do without a team of Hall of Famers around him.
6-Moses
7-Robinson
8-Gilmore
9-Reed
10-Mikan. Had great impact during the pre-shot clock era. Couldn't stack up today. Still, his influence is huge.

Honorable mention:

Mel Daniels-dominant ABA center. Potentially on par w/ Reed. We just don't know for sure

Walton-not enough longevity to make a lasting impact

Zo
Ewing
Thurmond
Cowens
Lanier
McAdoo
Bellamy-if he weren't so lazy, he could have been top 5 or 6.
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Old 04-17-2004, 06:01 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
As far as efficiency, he's a career .512 shooter which doesn't seem unreasonable, especially when you consider that his career percentage is dragged down by his rather poor end of career, when he had 4 of his final 5 seasons under 50% shooting. He also shot more jumpers than most centers, including Abdul-Jabbar.
consider this - hakeem was top 10 in fg% once in his career (10th in '94). kareem was top 5 15 times in his career, including all his peak scoring seasons.
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Old 04-17-2004, 07:23 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
consider this - hakeem was top 10 in fg% once in his career (10th in '94). kareem was top 5 15 times in his career, including all his peak scoring seasons.
And also consider this - Shaq was leading the League in fg% in 8 of his 12 years in the NBA. His worst was 4th in 1993 and 1997. He's #3 All-time in fg%.
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Old 04-17-2004, 10:09 AM   #135 (permalink)
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"More" could have to do with the scheme. The Rockets played a lot of post-and-kick half court offense that was popularized greatly in the '90s. They had guys like Mario Elie, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell and Kenny Smith shooting off of Olajuwon post passes after he drew the double-team.
But you can draw up those excuses for both of his main contempararies as well. Dale Ellis, Vinny Del Negro, Chuck Person, etc. have all made livings in the past playing with David Robinson. Olajuwon has a career 2.5 APG rate, and so does Robinson. It doesn't seem to me that Robinson was being any more selfish than Olajuwon was. In the early Magic, guys like Nick Anderson, Scott Skiles, and Dennis Scott all reaped the benefits, while in his Laker career, Horry, Fisher, and Fox played the same role. In addition, Shaq has played with a explosive perimeter scorer for almost all his career, something that neither Olajuwon and Robinson can claim to.
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As far as efficiency, he's a career .512 shooter which doesn't seem unreasonable, especially when you consider that his career percentage is dragged down by his rather poor end of career, when he had 4 of his final 5 seasons under 50% shooting. He also shot more jumpers than most centers, including Abdul-Jabbar.
Even if you take away his last three seasons, his career FG% still falls behind Robinson's career FG%, an offensive player who had the same versatility that Olajuwon had.
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