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LowOnMyPaper · 12-27-2006, 08:10 PM

Webber's making lists? WEBBER?! The man who's been a loser throughout his whole career? The man who never did anything good for his teams in the clutch? And Garnett is overrated as well. He's a lightweight for a power forward, and fades in crunch time. He's not the type of player to lead his team to a championship.

**johnston797** · 12-28-2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowOnMyPaper

Webber's making lists? WEBBER?! The man who's been a loser throughout his whole career?

Funny, I had a similar rant about Brand.

Weber's Kings were the 2nd best team in the league at least a couple of years. Just couldn't get past the Lakers.

Sunsfan81 · 12-28-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Goodman

Pettit's rank suffers in part because in playoffs he was an even bigger choker than Karl.

Bigger choker than Malone? How? Pettit lead the '58 Hawks to an NBA title against a Celtics team that was about to win 8 straight championships.

Sunsfan81 · 12-28-2006, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RollWithEm

Code:


  
    Top NBA Power Forwards of All-time
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    #
    Name
    All-Star
    All-NBA
    All-NBA 2nd
    MVP
    Titles
    Other Information
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    1
    Bob Pettit (1955-65) 
    11
    10
    1
    2
    1
    ROY; 6th in career PPG; 3rd in career RPG
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    2
    Tim Duncan (1998-now) 
    8
    8
    0
    2
    3
    ROY; 8-time all-defense; top 25 in career PPG, RPG, and BPG; only player ever All-NBA for first 8 seasons of his career
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    3
    Karl Malone (1986-2004) 
    14
    11
    2
    2
    0
    4-time all-defense; 1st in career FTM, FTA, DREB; 2nd in career PTS, FGM, FGA, MIN; 6th in career REB
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    4
    Charles Barkley (1985-2000) 
    11
    5
    5
    1
    0
    5th in career OREB; 8th in career DREB 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    5
    Kevin Garnett (1996-now)
    9
    3
    4
    1
    0
    7-time all-defense; 1st in consecutive seasons (6) averaging 20 PPG, 10 RPG, and 5 APG
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    6
    Kevin McHale (1981-93) 
    7
    1
    3
    0
    3
    2-time 6MOY; 6-time all-defense; 9th in career FG%; only player to shoot 60% FG and 80% FT in a season
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    7
    Bob McAdoo (1973-86) 
    5
    1
    1
    1
    2
    ROY; led league in PPG 3 times
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    8
    Jerry Lucas (1964-74) 
    7
    3
    2
    0
    1
    ROY; 4th in career RPG; only player besides Chamberlain and Russell to average 20 PPG, 20 RPG for a season
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    9
    Chris Webber (1994-now)
    5
    1
    3
    0
    0
    ROY; 9th in career triple doubles
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    10
    Elvin Hayes (1969-1984)
    12
    3
    3
    0
    1
    2-time all-defense; 4th in career REB; 6th in career PTS; missed 9 games in 16 seasons
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    11
    Dirk Nowitzki (1999-now)
    5
    2
    2
    0
    0
    MVP of 2002 WBC for Germany 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    12
    Shawn Kemp (1990-2003)
    6
    0
    3
    0
    0
    drug and weight shortened career
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    13
    Billy Cunningham (1966-76)
    5
    4
    1
    0
    1
    1-time ABA MVP
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    14
    Connie Hawkins (1968-76)
    4
    1
    0
    0
    0
    1-time ABA MVP; 2-time All-ABA; 1-time ABL MVP; 1-time All-ABL
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    15
    Ed Macauley (1950-59)
    7
    3
    1
    0
    0
    retired 3rd in career PTS and PPG
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



  
    16
    Dennis Rodman (1987-2000)
    2
    0
    1
    0
    5
    2-time DPOY; 8-time all-defense; only player to lead league in RPG 7 straight years; 10th in career RPG

Nice to see Pettit first. The biggest omission is Dolph Schayes, a top 50 player, and made All-NBA 1^st or 2^nd team 12 times.
DeBusschere should also be on the list. Also HoFer Vern Mikkelsen, and Gus Johnson who should be in the Hall of Fame.

I don’t consider McAdoo a PF; he was more of a C. Same goes for Ed Macauley, Clyde Lovellette, and Dan Issel.
Cunningham was more of SF, and I think Tom Heinsohn and Connie Hawkins were also SFs.

Also, Elvin Hayes was FAR better than Chris Webber.

Here's a Top 30 list.

1. Bob Pettit
2. Tim Duncan
3. Karl Malone
4. Charles Barkley
5. Dolph Schayes
6. Kevin Garnett
7. Elvin Hayes
8. Jerry Lucas
9. Dave DeBusschere
10. Kevin McHale
11. Dirk Nowitzki
12. Dennis Rodman
13. Vern Mikkelsen
14. Gus Johnson
15. Bailey Howell
16. Harry Gallatin
17. Spencer Haywood
18. George McGinnis
19. Chris Webber
20. Bobby Jones
21. Tom Chambers
22. Shawn Kemp
23. Larry Nance
24. Maurice Stokes
25. Willie Naulls
26. Dan Roundfield
27. Maurice Lucas
28. Elton Brand
29. Bill Bridges
30. Rudy LaRusso

BadBaronRudigor · 12-28-2006, 08:22 PM

As for your position listings, you are correct that the centers you mention played center for their teams as much as people wanted them to play PF (much as Amare does for Phoenix). Only change is that Heinsohn was clearly the PF on that team, Sanders and Ramsey (later Havlicek) were the PFs. Was going to disagree on Nance who played SF with Phoenix but with Cleveland he was mainly a PF so you are right there.

I do think you rate the older guys a bit high, I love Pettit and rate him third behind Duncan and Malone, Schayes should be in the 10-20 range and Mikkelson, Gallatin, and Naulls probably 30-50 I would say though Stokes was a unique player. Paul Silas should be on the list; have to look up Jack Sikma who I think spent most of his best years at PF though he then enjoyed a long career as a mediocre center afterward.

carlos710 · 12-28-2006, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Goodman

.

I tried to come up with some stats myself, and i really dont see how Malone was a superior rebounder than barkley.
Both of them had their best rebounding years in pretty much the same years, so league pace shouldn't be a factor.

I checked their Rebound rate, reb per 40, reb per 36, reb per game, etc. I didnt find any way to validate your claim about Malone being the best rebounder from that group.

Same with duncan, duncan averaged more rebounds, with a higher rate as well. I would like to see your full calcs when comparing malone vs barkley/duncan as far as rebounding goes (im not a stat magician so i likely didnt get correctly your previous formula).

By the way, as much as im impressed with Pettit's overall stats, is hard for me to claim him the best PF ever without having watched a lot of him. And there isnt a real good stat to take defense or overall impact into consideration, and i think those are the areas where Duncan outshines the rest of the group (and winning, which i also take into consideration)

Mike Goodman · 12-29-2006, 11:26 AM

Pettit's Hawks got to the Finals 4 times, winning once. In an 8-team league, it's not that great a feat to just reach the 'Final 2'.

In the '58 Finals, Cliff Hagan led the Hawks statistically. Maybe Russell was covering Pettit, at least before he was lost to a sprained ankle. (After that, Pettit scored 50, and the Hawks won.)

I've got every major player's career in 'standardized' rates of production in the stat categories. On average, a player is about 95% as productive in the playoffs as in the regular season. Pettit's career PO/RS ratio is only .91 . Of my top 35 careers, only Wilt (.90) had a more persistent dropoff in the playoffs.

Webber (.91) and Malone (.92) could also be called playoff underachievers. Russell (1.03) and Olajuwon (1.07) were exceptional, actually providing more against increased competition.

Mike Goodman · 12-29-2006, 11:30 AM

Earlier, I thought I said Malone was the weakest rebounder of the 5 mentioned. Here's how I've got them in per-36-minute rebounds, standardized:

12.6 Duncan
12.4 Barkley
11.7 Pettit
11.7 Garnett
10.9 Malone

Most players lose their rebounding strength as they age. So Duncan's rate may well end up lower than Barkley's; and KG's should slip, as well.

Mike Goodman · 12-29-2006, 11:36 AM

Easy Ed Macauley was 6-8 and 185 pounds! He was a Cliff Robinson type of center, but smaller.

BadBaronRudigor · 12-29-2006, 02:03 PM

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