lessthanjake

Its two years. When I say 2004-2005 I mean the 2003-2004 and the 2004-2005 seasons.

PauloCatarino

It's not Bird's 84-86.

It's Jordan's 87-92.

RomaVictor

Yes, Paulo, we get it already.

lessthanjake

There are a couple problems with Magic trying to take a period of time between 1987 and 1992.

1. His two best years were 1987 and 1989. 1988 was subpar for him (still great but he was definately not better than Jordan that year). This means that he didnt put together two straight years being better than Jordan.
2. Once again his two best years were 1987 and 1989. In 1987 Jordan got over 37 points a game and in 1989, Jordan had his 8 rebound and 8 assist year. So in his two best years, Jordan also had amazing years so you cant say Magic was better than Jordan then.
3. Jordan lead the league in PER all of those years. Magic wasnt all that close to him.
4. Now you may say that PER doesnt take into account how Magic made his teammates better. And thats true. But PER also doesnt take into account defense, which Jordan was one of the best in the league at, and Magic decidedly was not.


I dont really see an argument you could make for Magic in those years beyond "Well you had to see him, he did everything to make his team win."

Roscoe Sheed

To mention the 1960s without mentioning Bill Russell is absurd

lessthanjake

Was he ever a better player than Wilt? I think not. He was a WAY lesser scorer, a lesser rebounder, and a lesser or equal passer. All he had on Wilt was defense, but Wilt WAS good at getting blocks and probably got around as many as Russell. Russell won more, but thats not what we are talking about. He was NOT a better player.

PauloCatarino

Then why not extend Bird's dominance till 1988? He had a better year than Jordan in 1988.

I use stats for some purposes while discussing ball. But not all purposes. Nash is a 2-time MVP playing Magic-ball (less rebounding). Kobe and Lebron played Jordan-ball (refering as "Jordan-ball" his 37ppg one season and his 8-8 the other.

I don't regard PER as a meaningfull measure to compare players. Same way i don't see PPFGA a good judge of who's the better scorer (Magic beats MJ in PPFGA)

Individual defense is overrated, unless we were discussing centers.

Who was the Athlete of the decade for Sports Ilustrated? Why?

PauloCatarino

Sorry. I'll try to refrain.

kaniffmn

I'm a big fan of the saying "The greatest player comes along once (I'm going to say a few times though) every generation." With that said I'd consider a decade an era. In the 1950's...it was Mikan, Petit, and Cousy. The 60's was Russell, Chamberlin, and Oscar. In the 70's it was Kareem and Dr. J (I will include him regardless of NBA/ABA). In the 80's...It was definitely Bird and Magic. And in the 90's it was Jordan, Olajuwon, and Shaq (I would put Karl Malone in there too). The 2000's are still being made with a very diversified point of view on who it should be at this point. I would actually see Lebron, Wade, Melo, and all them coming in the group of 2010's because they are still relatively young and that is when they will hit their primes (that's a scary thought). But 2000's, in my opinion belong to Garnett, Duncan, Iverson. There are so many options out there to choose from though. I can see arguments for Kobe, Dirk, and Nash...if i'm missing anyone please say so...but that's just how I see it.

__________________
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lessthanjake

He did? Looks to me like all he did was rebound a bit better. On the other hand Jordan scored a lot more and was a much better defender (even getting DPOY in 1988).

MVP is different than best player. Notice I dont have Nash anywhere near being named in this thread. I have no problem with him getting MVP awards but hes not a better individual player than other people. So your comparison is irrelevant.

PER isnt the be all end all, but its a good measure of overall production. And in this case it shows decisively that Jordan was the better individual player.

And Magic beats MJ in PPFGA only by an almost insignificant amount. Like some simple rough calculations shows me that Magic would end up making one more shot out of every 53 than Jordan would. Thats not all that significant, especially with Magic playing a more uptempo style where both teams are playing more efficiently.

It was more relevant when there was no zone defense. And the NBA voters agreed with me when they voted Jordan as the best defensive player in the league in 1988, better than any center in the league.

I would say he was the best player of the 80s too. I like him more than Bird and Jordan only played half of the 80s. That doesnt mean he was the best player for any more concentrated period of time.

PauloCatarino