lessthanjake

Thats good enough for me too. I would love to have Larry Bird on any team. But its not good enough to be considered better than Jordan.

Its significant but Bird needs it to be a huge difference to be considered better than Jordan in my eyes.

Yeah I know. I was like 99% sure thats what you were saying but was just covering all my bases.

Yes thats true. But its not the fact that they had an all around game that puts them in that catagory. Its the fact that by doing a lot of things of value in a game they contributed more to their team than almost any other player. But just being able to do everything well doesnt give you an added boost simply by virtue of being "all around." I dont know if I am being totally clear with that but my point is that producing points, rebounds, and assists at high rates is good because you are producing a lot of things of value for your team, not because you are producing different types of things of value. For instance, if one player produces a balanced number of points, rebounds, and assists they arent any better than someone who produces a lot more points but a lot less rebounds. They are just contributing in a different way.

SGs arent really supposed to get more assists than SFs...SGs and SFs having passing skills is IMO an equal bonus because both positions arent great in production of assists and arent typically supposed to do that.

And if SGs get slightly more assists than SFs its only because in general SFs dont handle the ball a lot. Bird DID handle the ball a lot, which in a sense took away opportunities for DJ and Ainge to get assists because w/o Bird theyd have been the ones with the ball.

I dont care how they score as long as they do it and do it efficiently. In fact I would say that driving to the basket is more valuable to the team because it gets opposing players in foul trouble.

In terms of rebounding:
Oakley>Parish
Corzine + Grant=McHale except that those two played in virtually every game whereas McHale was out for almost 20 games.

Its rather obvious that Oakley being there hindered Jordan's rebounding seeing as his rebound rate went up 149% the year after Oakley left.

I think you were reading into my statement more than I meant for you to. My point was that Jordan's teammates were better rebounders at corresponding positions than Bird's teammates were, especially with Oakley. This means that your point about Bird having Parish and McHale with him is irrelevant.

Jordan was a great defender for a few reasons.

1. He was a shut down defender on his man
2. He played the passing lanes better than anyone, making ball movement hard for the other team.
3. He was one of the best doubling players in the league making it hard on opposing big men.
4. In 1988 he managed to get a lot of blocks too

His defense was probably overrated later in his career but in the late 80s that guy was a beast on defense.

I am not quite getting what you are saying. Basically the point is that the Pistons used to double and triple team Jordan to stop him. I watched a bunch of things about those Pistons recently and it showed Dumars I think basically saying that the Jordan rules were "basically just a lot of help defense."

Oh and Karl Malone lead the league in FTA that year not Barkley, not that it matters.

Not me. I love Barkley but I have heard it said.

What? Of course they were a good team when they won their championships. Every championship team is a good team, not just a single person. But at the time people thought that a leading scorer took away too much from his team to have a good team around him I guess or something.

Ok they had a great supporting cast BUT in the late 80s the supporting cast was below average.

PauloCatarino

I NEVER said Bird was a better player than Jordan. All i'm saying is that, in 1988, he was.

Answered above.

The Chicago Bulls story tells it differently. If it wasn't for Phil apponting Scottie to be the main ball-handler, maybe (just maybe) history wouldn't be the same. Like in Michael-pulverized-his-opponents-but-didn't-win-nothing different.

That's news to me... Maybe i need a reality check, for normally, SG handle the ball more tham SFs...

Off course, Bird being able to play point forward is the notable exeption for that rule. and that's exactly my point.

Bird didn't handle the ball a lot.

Please. It's just damed right wrong.

Bird was a SF! and that's the freaking point!

IF the Celtics PF were to be Muggsy Bogues and the Center Michael Adams, Bird would probably average 17rpg.

Bird rebounded extremely well for the Sf position back in the day. In fact, comparable numbers with Shawn Marion for 2001 till 2004. And Matrix never played with McHale and Parish. And since then, he never played with someone with Parish's Rrate...

I don't undestand this.

I don't agree. MJ's defense was overrated purposely back in the day.

No they didn't. Illegal defense rules prevented it.

The "Jordan Rules" notion had two meanings, really:
1- the way to try and stop Jordan;
2- the way Jordan's game would set a new line of rules (like: no palming, no travelling, etc.)

It was Chuck.

Please...

You are correct.

and the Bulls won nothing in the "late 80s"...

Hakeem

It's not Bird's 6 apg that makes him a great passer. While he used up a lot of possessions, he didn't dribble the ball around and wait for opportunities (unlike, say, Tracy McGrady, who is a very good passer himself, but is simply on a lower level to Bird). 6 assists is pretty ordinary, but Bird is one of the best passers I've seen. Far superior to Jordan.

Jordan's defense was overrated in the '80s, IMO. He was too aggressive. I think his defense was best during the first three-peat.

lessthanjake

And I am still talking 1988.

I lived in Chicago back then and watched all the games. I seem to remember Paxson and BJ handling the ball, not Pippen. It doesnt really matter and you are probably right but thats what I remember.

You just called him a point forward before that so you are contradicting yourself.

However, you are right he didnt handle the ball all that much. He was more of an off the ball mover. But see that may help his team in that they can still handle the ball when he is setting up a way to take a shot, but it also makes him get less opportunities to shoot, meaning he was far less capable of going off with a huge game than Jordan was. And to me, part of being a good player is being able to just explode when your team is playing badly and single handedly take the game. Now I am sure you will counter with examples of Bird doing that, but we can both agree I am sure that he couldnt do it like Jordan did.

So basically, Bird left his teammates far more capable to get a play going without him, but was less capable of really taking over when his team wasnt working well with those plays. You may like the way Bird played. Personally I like the Jordan way because when I watched the Bulls at the ends of games I ALWAYS felt like Jordan could get them back into any game that they werent playing well in and were behind. I just doubt Celtic fans felt the same way about Bird all the time (although yes being one of the greats he was able to do such things a good amount of times).

And if Jordan played with those two he would probably average 13 or 14 rebounds. Thats not relevant though.

Yes, Bird was a great rebounder, especially for a SF. But Jordan was also an exceptional rebounder for a guard. And just like you pointed out that you thought that a SF getting an assist is more significant than a SG getting one because its not a SFs job to do that, so to are rebounds more significant from a SG than a SF. Bird SHOULD rebound more than Jordan because if you put an average SF and SG on a team the SF would get more rebounds than the SG.

To me rebounding should be guaged agaisnt what the average for the position they play is. I mean a PG averaging 9 rebounds is more valuable as a rebounder than a center averaging 9.1. Both Bird and Jordan rebounded better than the average for their position, but factoring in position makes Bird's advantage lesser.

Oakley was a better rebounder than Parish
Corzine and Grant are better rebounders that year than McHale
Their backcourts are about equal with Paxson + Pippen being at least equal to Ainge and DJ.

So when Jordan was on the court, he had better rebounders for teammates there with him, making getting a rebound harder. And its NOT because Jordan was a SG and Bird a SF so Bird's teammates would obviously be lesser rebounders. The PF and C combo of the Bulls were better rebounders than the corresponding PF and Cs of the Celtics.

So basically your argument that Bird was a better rebounder than his stats show because he was on a team with great rebounders is totally null and void because Jordan had great rebounders on his team too.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...rchive/891106/

Tell me where in that DETAILED overview of the Jordan rules (go to the bullet points mostly at the bottom for the best parts) it says "Have Dumars shut down Jordan." It doesnt. In fact lets quote that to back up my previous point that you tried to say was false.

"When Jordan posts up near the basket, Detroit typically puts three men on him, with Dumars most often behind him, using his strong hips and legs to "body" Jordan away from the basket. When the entry pass comes in from the point guard, Thomas leaves that guard and double-teams Jordan. If that means the point guard is free, so be it. Meanwhile, another defender, perhaps Laimbeer or Salley, will have come over and planted himself in the lane, maybe on the baseline side, maybe toward the middle."

Look like he was tripled.

Yeah for some reason I was looking at 1989. Sorry.

They got to the conference finals in 1989. He wasnt a KG, he just didnt have the team to win a championship, not to mention he was facing some tough as crap Pistons teams.

In the year we are talking about Jordan lost in the conference semifinals and Bird lost in the conference finals. But of course they both lost to the Pistons so thats kinda not relevant cause you cant say that the Bulls couldnt have beaten the Hawks in the conference semis.

_____________________________

I dont know. Really none of us know because we didnt play against him and try to score on him. The thing is that he had a reputation as a good defender and a good shut down defender. He had to have gotten that reputation somewhere. He was new to the league in the late 80s so its not like he had already gotten the reputation and was just riding it.

Hakeem

It could be because of all the blocks and steals. He had his career highs in both those categories in '88. But he gambled a lot, so he sometimes ended up giving things away. He was a great defender back then, too, but I think he was clearly better in the early '90s.

lessthanjake

I was under the impression that Jordan gambled a bit too much REALLY early in his career (like his first 1-3 years). I was too young to really pay attention to that too much then, although I did live in Chicago and watched most Bulls games. I dont know. Maybe you are right but in that case its odd that he got his DPOY then and not later.

Still though, it cant be denied that he was a way better defensive player than Bird.

PauloCatarino

[quote=lessthanjake]I was under the impression that Jordan gambled a bit too much REALLY early in his career (like his first 1-3 years). I was too young to really pay attention to that too much then, although I did live in Chicago and watched most Bulls games. I dont know. Maybe you are right but in that case its odd that he got his DPOY then and not later.

Still though, it cant be denied that he was a way better defensive player than Bird.[/QUOTE]

One-on-one defender, yes.

lessthanjake