Minstrel

And Erving PERs were very similar to Pippen's in those seasons.

The years in which Erving's PERs were highest, and superior to Pippen's, Erving was the undisputed leader of the 76ers (roughly 1979-1980 through 1982-1983)

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BadBaronRudigor

sure, but I'm not the one that said Erving was always the main man on his teams . . . btw, the year Moses joined the 76ers, ERving was again THIRD on the team in shots attempted

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kflo

erving's per with moses were most similar to pippen's per without jordan.

we're also completely ignoring erving's aba career, when he was, arguably (and by most accounts), at his peak.

mediocre man

Larry Bird. Seriously, it's not even close. Oscar Robertson would be number 1 if you thought of him as a swing player, and it's not even close for second.

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Minstrel

True. And Pippen's PER without Jordan wasn't terribly far off Erving's best NBA PER.

Possibly his peak. His best NBA seasons weren't the ones directly after he entered the NBA. It wasn't until several seasons later that he attained his NBA peak. So it's awfully debateable that he was at his best in the ABA.

But yes, we're ignoring it. Just as you ignore Arvydas Sabonis' peak in the international leagues when comparing him to other NBA players.

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BadBaronRudigor

Very few players made the Euro league to NBA jump in Sabonis day and even fewer (1?) NBA starters made the jump the other way. NBA/ABA there were a number every year after the first allowing a decent statistical comparisom to be made which I have posted here before but which you ignore. you can also look at the records after the merger for the players (team records are hurt by what the league did to the Nets with the money penalties which forced them to sell Dr. J and strip their team). The all star game after the merger was about 50/50 ABA alums despite the fact that there were over twice as many NBA teams as ever existed in the ABA so the star level was certainly high. The leagues weren't equal but were approaching it, if Kareem shifted leagues in 1976, they might well have been equal in fact.

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kflo

sabonis didn't play against any top players. big difference between that, and erving playing in the aba, where there were plenty of the worlds top players.

erving entered the nba and adjusted on a team that went to the finals his first season.

Minstrel

Not sure what your point here is. If it is that Erving validated himself as a superior NBA player...that hasn't been in dispute.

His PER dropped hugely instantly upon changing leagues. There's no way an 8 point drop in PER from one season to the next, in his mid-20s, was age-related. It was clearly due to moving to a significantly better league. Thus, his ABA PERs are definitely not comparable to the PERs of NBA players.

If you want to just subtract 8 points from all his ABA PERs (insanely crude, no arguments), I'm perfectly happy to count them in.

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BadBaronRudigor

(a) if could easily be age related . . . I showed equivalent drops for 7 of the top 10 SF of all time all in their late twenties that had similar drops over a one year period as age and injuries forced changes in their game and . . .

(b) it could be situational. He moved to a team that had two established stars and was 2nd (collins was injured ) and 3rd in shots attempted his first two years with 76ers . . . don't think Pippen was ever third on the Bulls in shots attempted once he reached his prime though I could be wrong.

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Minstrel

They weren't such drastic drops. 8 points is huge...it was a "most dominant player in game" to normal star type of drop, as far as PER goes. Also, did Erving suffer an injury in his first 76er year that he did have in his last Nets year?

But I doubt Erving would have been third in shots if he were arguably the best player in the NBA (as he would be if his near-29 Nets PER were legitimate). I think his circumstances were a reflection that he was, at the time, a very good but not great offensive performer. Several years later, he became a great offensive performer.

To illustrate it another way, do you think circumstances would have made Jordan a third-option ever? I don't. Suppose Pippen and Jordan had been reversed in chronology...Pippen came to the Bulls in 1984-85, and Jordan came several years later. Do you think Jordan would have spent a few years as the second option due to the more "established" Pippen? I don't...greatness almost always tends to overcome senio