View Poll Results: If you had to start a franchise, who do you take?

Kareem 12 44.44%
Michael 15 55.56%
Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-25-2006, 08:00 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Michael or Kareem? Tougher then you think...

There is no way I woukd take Wilt over Kareem, Cap is such a better overall player and team player
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Old 10-26-2006, 06:43 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Michael or Kareem? Tougher then you think...

Quote:
Originally Posted by white360
There is no way I woukd take Wilt over Kareem, Cap is such a better overall player and team player
I know you really like cap but can you elaborate on this especially on Kareem being such a better overall player?

I also think cap was a better team player at least in terms of how long for his career but when Wilt sacrificed his individual stats for the team (i.e. his latter Lakers' years) he help lead a team to 69 wins and even though he played beside great players like West and Goodrich it was still Wilt who won the Finals MVP.

I think Wilt also still gets a bad rep for losing. But truth be told he did man the paint for two of the greatest teams in the NBA (67' Sixers and 72' Lakers). But he did play in 6 Finals only to win 2. Where as Kareem (one of the greatest winners ever) played in 10 to win 6.

But I don't think his earlier teams would have been as successful if he had not scored as much as he did. He might have cared about the stat sheet a lot but his stats probably helped his teams win more than it helped his team lose. I mean even when he was in his admitted "trying to lead the league in assists" stage of his career the Sixers won 68 and 62 games respectively in the regular season. But that is my guess because even in his early teams he did play along side two HOFers in Arizin and Gola. You'd think with 3 HOFers a team would be better than a perennial .600 team.

But was Kareem that much of a better offensive player in the post, passer, and defender than Wilt to justify being "such a better overall player"?
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Old 11-02-2006, 03:15 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Michael or Kareem? Tougher then you think...

My top two picks to build a team around if I have a pool of every player to have ever played the game to choose from are 1) Bill Russell, 2) Kareem. I know everyone's automatically, saying, "Jordan," because he's usually the "automatic" answer to any question in which his name is involved in. But look how much time it took for the Bulls to build a winning team around Jordan, while Kareem joined a team that finished 27-55 the previous season—the second-worst record in the league, and INSTANTLY improved them to a 56-26 record which was the greatest single-season turnaround in NBA History to that point, and they went to the Eastern Conference Finals. All they needed was one more piece (Oscar Robertson), and they won a title the very next year.

I'm taking Kareem. I'm of the opinion that you have to go big. My team will be built around the skyhook, the greatest go-to move in the history of the game. “Kareem Abdul-Jabbar’s skyhook is the most deadly and unstoppable offensive weapon in any sport. For years and years, the Lakers picked up their paychecks regularly because Kareem dropped that shot in right hand or left hand, whenever the game was on the line. […] We had plenty of other offensive weapons, but that was the one that came out of the holster when we got into a make-or-break situation. […] In our half-court offense we went into Kareem in the low post so much it was an act of arrogance. We didn’t even try to disguise it. It was like saying, “Here’s what we’re going to do. It’s what we always do. We just don’t think you can stop it” (Showtime: Inside the Lakers’ Breakthrough Season [New York: Warner Books, 1988], pp. 49-50).

With the skyhook, Abdul-Jabbar shot over 50 percent from the field for an NBA record 19 consecutive seasons—his shooting percentage didn’t dip below 50 percent until his final season in the league, at 42 years old. His career field-goal percentage of 55.9 percent is eighth-highest in NBA history behind Artis Gilmore (.599), Mark West (.580), Shaquille O’Neal (.5797), Steve Johnson (.5722), Darryl Dawkins (.5720), James Donaldson (.571), and Jeff Ruland (.564), and his 28,307 field-goal attempts are the most in history. He has the two highest field-goal percentages for a 30-point scorer in NBA history (31.7 ppg on 57.7% in 1970-71 and 34.8 ppg on 57.4% in 1971-72), and three of the top seven (30.2 ppg on 55.4% in 1972-73)—so he will score, and he will do it efficiently. During his 20 year career which spanned 1,560 games from 1969-70 to 1988-89, Abdul-Jabbar played against Wilt Chamberlain, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Dave Cowens, Bob Lanier, Bob McAdoo, Bill Walton, Alvin Adams, Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Jack Sikma, Tree Rollins, Bill Laimbeer, Mark Eaton, Hakeem Olajuwon and Patrick Ewing. The only greats at his position he didn’t play against were George Mikan, who played during the late ’40s to mid ’50s, Bill Russell, who retired in 1969 after winning his 11th NBA championship, David Robinson, who came in the league during the 1989-90 season, the year after Abdul-Jabbar’s retirement, and Shaquille O’Neal, who entered the league three years later. “The skyhook has definitely been a factor in my longevity […]. I’ve avoided the beating I would have taken if I’d gone inside all the time and worked directly under the boards” (Kareem [New York: Random House, 1990], p. 170). At 38 years of age, Abdul-Jabbar was MVP of the 1985 NBA Finals, averaging 25.7 ppg, 9 rpg and 5.2 apg, shooting 60.4 percent from the floor and 76.9 percent from the line. “The range on that sky hook of his was awesome,” said Larry Bird. “In ’85 he was shooting that thing from the corner like it was a lay-up. It didn’t matter how old he was, when you needed a basket, you’d want Kareem shooting that sky hook. There was nothing you could do except hope that he missed it” (244). The following year, at 39, Abdul-Jabbar was named to the All-NBA First Team, scoring 23.4 points per game (10th in the league) on 56.4 percent shooting (7th). In a 117-95 win over the Houston Rockets on Feb. 6, 1985, “The 38-year-old wonder turned back the hands of time to give the Twin Towers of Akeem Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson a lesson. When the instruction was complete, he had piled up a season-high 46 points—tying the record by a Rocket opponent at the Summit—on 21-for-30 shooting and also collected 11 rebounds to almost single-handedly turn back another challenge by the supposed heirs to the throne” (Houston Chronicle 7 Feb. 1986).

Wilt Chamberlain said that Abdul-Jabbar “was the greatest offensive force I ever faced on a basketball court—by far.” Walt Frazier said that if he could choose any player in NBA history in his prime to start a team, he’d pick Abdul-Jabbar—even over Jordan, who is also the player he’d want to take the last shot with the game on the line. “Start with Abdul-Jabbar and that sky-hook. That was unstoppable.” Additionally, Abdul-Jabbar was a career 72.1 percent shooter from the free-throw line. In Game 6 of the 1988 NBA Finals against the Detroit Pistons, at the age of 41, Abdul-Jabbar was fouled by Bill Laimbeer with 14 seconds left and the Lakers down by one, stepped to the line and hit both free throws to give the Lakers a 103-102 win, tying the series at three games apiece and sending it to Game 7. So when the game's on the line, I would be quite comfortable going to Abdul-Jabbar to take the most unstoppable shot in NBA history, and if he's fouled, he can make the free throws.

Also, “What makes Abdul-Jabbar so devastating on offense is the completeness of his game. In addition to being the closest thing to an automatic two points as exists in the game, he is also a skilled passer. To play him one-on-one is to invite a good shot, but to double or triple-team him is to invite a better shot for someone else." Tom Heinsohn said, “He’s the best big guy I ever saw at reading a defense and picking out the right open man for the best percentage shot” (Give ’em the Hook [New York: Prentice Hall, 1988], pp. 186-87).

Since blocked shots were recorded beginning in the 1973-74 season, Abdul-Jabbar led the league four times (3.26 bpg in ’74-75, 4.12 in ’75-76, 3.95 in ’78-79 and 3.41 in ’79-80), which is the most since they’ve been keeping track of the statistic. And something which may not be commonly known,

TEAM DEFENSE
FIELD-GOAL PERCENTAGE

(Opponents’ field-goal percentage has been compiled since 1970-71)

Lowest opponents’ field-goal percentage, season
.420 — Milwaukee, 1971-72 (3,370/8,025)
.422 — Milwaukee, 1972-73 (3,385/8,028)
.424 — Milwaukee, 1970-71 (3,489/8,224)

Jabbar's Bucks held opponents to the lowest field-goal percentage in NBA history since the statistic was recorded, and they held the record for 26 years, until the San Antonio Spurs broke it in the 1997-98 season after the arrival of Tim Duncan, when they held opponents to 41.1 percent shooting (2,737/6,656).

So, uh, let's see... Michael or Kareem to build a team around? I'm going to have to take Kareem. And unlike many people who simply answer "Jordan," as if the mere mention of the name should be enough and not need an explanation, I've given my reasons behind my pick so the Jordan fanboys can't say, "What? You're picking someone over Jordan? You're crazy!"
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Old 11-02-2006, 03:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: Michael or Kareem? Tougher then you think...

great post, but you do realize that magic prolonged kareems career dont you. and i know you dont want me to go into jordans accomplishments.
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:20 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Michael or Kareem? Tougher then you think...

Quote:
Originally Posted by da bully
great post, but you do realize that magic prolonged kareems career dont you. and i know you dont want me to go into jordans accomplishments.
Hmmm... I didn't even go into all of Kareem's many accomplishments, I listed why I chose him, listing what he would provide for my team. Choosing someone to build a team around does not consist of listing individual accomplishments. What does that prove? When you get to the level these two are at, of course you're going to have accomplishments. I said how he'd fit into the team that I would construct. And all you can reply with is, "Magic prolonged Kareem's career." "I know you don't want me to go into Jordan's accomplishments" instead of providing something of substance. Kareem took the second-worst team in the league to the Eastern Conference Finals in his first year in the league, and with the addition of one more piece the following year, they won the title. And that had nothing to do with "Magic prolonging his career." It took years for the Bulls to construct a winning team around Jordan. It's much easier to build around Kareem. But you refuse to acknowledge that.
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Old 11-03-2006, 03:49 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: Michael or Kareem? Tougher then you think...

So would you take probably the greatest SG/SF ever or one of the greatest Centers ever...I'd take Jordan, but it's a lot easier to build a contender around Wilt/Shaq/Kareem.
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Old 11-03-2006, 05:06 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Michael or Kareem? Tougher then you think...

that not true none of those greast centers be it jabarr, wilt, shaq, olajuwan who are the best, won until they had solid to great perimeter guys. kareem didnt win until they got an old robertson and didnt win again until the lakers got magic. which was a span of what 9 years? but i would have to check.
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Old 11-03-2006, 05:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: Michael or Kareem? Tougher then you think...

hows that reg, and it didnt even take a whole page.
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