He could create his own shot, but not at a very high level. Divorced from Magic and the Lakers, his individual ability would not have seemed remarkable.
I disagree with this. Worthy may not be an all-time great: he wasn't a great passer for example but his first step for a guy his size was outrageously quick. He was a tough matchup becuase of his size and quickness: again smaller SF's he'd go in the post and against anyone with size he would his quickness.
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I disagree with this. Worthy may not be an all-time great: he wasn't a great passer for example but his first step for a guy his size was outrageously quick. He was a tough matchup becuase of his size and quickness: again smaller SF's he'd go in the post and against anyone with size he would his quickness.
I think you're overrating his first step a bit. He was quick for a 6'9'' power forward, but he wasn't a great slasher nor did he have a refined post-game. He was a good offensive option, because he could get separation, he could back smaller players down a bit and he could hit open jumpers...he wasn't top-notch at anything, though.
When you also consider that he doesn't have any major defensive value (average at best) or passing value and he was a limited rebounder, he basically boils down to a good to very good offensive player over his prime and nothing else.
I'd compare him to Cedric Ceballos in terms of individual ability: at his prime, he was a go-to scorer, but nothing like an all-time great offensive player and one-dimensional.
If you're going to make the Hall of Fame as a one-dimensional player, you'd better be one of the very best ever at that dimension. Worthy wasn't.
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I think you're overrating his first step a bit. He was quick for a 6'9'' power forward, but he wasn't a great slasher nor did he have a refined post-game. He was a good offensive option, because he could get separation, he could back smaller players down a bit and he could hit open jumpers...he wasn't top-notch at anything, though.
I don't think so Worthy played the vast majority of time at SF and he was a full 6'9, 225+ i.e. similar proportions to Lebron with a quicker first step. He was a little good at everything because he used he created a physical matchup against almost any other player so he benefited from having a variety of offensive moves i.e. he didn't have to be exceptional to create offense solo. The combo was tough to handle: i.e. guys like Rodman had a very tough time dealing with Worthy
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When you also consider that he doesn't have any major defensive value (average at best) or passing value and he was a limited rebounder, he basically boils down to a good to very good offensive player over his prime and nothing else.
I'd compare him to Cedric Ceballos in terms of individual ability: at his prime, he was a go-to scorer, but nothing like an all-time great offensive player and one-dimensional.
If you're going to make the Hall of Fame as a one-dimensional player, you'd better be one of the very best ever at that dimension. Worthy wasn't.
Was Worthy a HOF player, like I said it's debatable. He is a much better candidate then Joes Dumars for example but not sure he's better then say a Sidney Moncrief. I think he is hurt in some ways becuase he played on good teams as initially the 3rd and then second option so overall performances measures like PER are decreased. He did what his team asked him to do.
I just think you're underestimating his scoring potential as one thing Worthy could do was create his own shot. The 87 & 88 Laker halfcourt offense was basically throwing the ball to Worthy in the post
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Was Worthy a HOF player, like I said it's debatable.
Personally, I don't think it's too debateable. His PERs aren't exceptional, he doesn't get upgraded any for defense and he was entirely one-dimensional (unexceptional rebounder or passer), yet not even his biggest supporters would suggest he was a fantastic, or all-time great, scorer.
And it's highly arguable as to whether his PERs were helped or hurt by playing on the Showtime Lakers. He may have been second- or third-option for while, but in an offense that played at tremendous pace and produced lots of opportunities for everyone, by design.
Do you really believe that without the aura of the Showtime Lakers (say he had played out his career on the 1980s Kings) he would have been seriously considered for the Hall of Fame?
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Personally, I don't think it's too debateable. His PERs aren't exceptional, he doesn't get upgraded any for defense and he was entirely one-dimensional (unexceptional rebounder or passer), yet not even his biggest supporters would suggest he was a fantastic, or all-time great, scorer.
And it's highly arguable as to whether his PERs were helped or hurt by playing on the Showtime Lakers. He may have been second- or third-option for while, but in an offense that played at tremendous pace and produced lots of opportunities for everyone, by design.
Do you really believe that without the aura of the Showtime Lakers (say he had played out his career on the 1980s Kings) he would have been seriously considered for the Hall of Fame?
I don't really know what to make of HOF discussions anymore once Dumars got elected. There is no set criteria to argue with particularly considering the gazillion amount of coaches who've been elected. Worthy was a better player then Dumars, he's at leaast as "worthy" as Parrish IMO and Alex English.
I still think you're underestimating Worthy, if he wasn't part of Showtime I do believe his numbers would have been better as a team's number 1 option if he didn't go to the Lakers (first overall pick in the draft). Would have those numbers been enough to make the HOF, don't know. Like I said he's similar to Alex English who did make the HOF and his numbers would be more in line with Adrian Dantley who didn't. Then again I think Dantley should be in the HOF anways.
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I don't really know what to make of HOF discussions anymore once Dumars got elected. There is no set criteria to argue with particularly considering the gazillion amount of coaches who've been elected. Worthy was a better player then Dumars, he's at leaast as "worthy" as Parrish IMO and Alex English.
I absolutely agree with you there. Dumars is a poor electee and Parrish and English seem better cut out for the Hall of The Very Good.
I simply don't believe in making a Hall of Fame case based on the worst selections, because that simply downgrades the Hall of Fame. Granted, there will be some undeserving selections, but they should be limited...they shouldn't lower the bar.
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I still think you're underestimating Worthy, if he wasn't part of Showtime I do believe his numbers would have been better as a team's number 1 option if he didn't go to the Lakers (first overall pick in the draft). Would have those numbers been enough to make the HOF, don't know. Like I said he's similar to Alex English who did make the HOF and his numbers would be more in line with Adrian Dantley who didn't. Then again I think Dantley should be in the HOF anways.
I also think Dantley should probably be in, but his PERs are significantly higher. Even if you're right that Worthy could have recorded higher PERs on another team, I don't think they would have risen that much; as I said, he played on a team that played at fantastic pace and got him a lot more opportunities and easy opportunities than any other second- or third-option.
Also, as far as underestimating Worthy, bear in mind that he used to be one of my childhood heros (after Magic and Kareem) as I grew up idolizing the Showtime Lakers. I've gone from thinking of him as a surefire Hall of Famer to thinking he was a very good player for his generation, but not an immortal.
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Underrated/Overrated Greats
