sammysamosa

awesome thread, keep it going...seeing as how i wasn't really into basketball and the 90's except for being a bandwagon bulls fan...and i was born in 85 so i didnt see much of the lakers...as of right now i think the bulls guys are winning me over on the debate...not just statistics wise but the lakers guy's will mention how the beat better offense's and beat better defense's but how can u say that when the bull's had close to the best of both sides...it'd be completely different. and then the stats are what is putting it over for me..keep debating though...very interesting stuff

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B-Scott

1991 James Worthy was no where close to 85 Worthy athletically. He might have averaged 19 points in that series ,but he was very limited. Magic came in 2nd in the MVP voting in 1991 ,but he was still much quicker in 1985. Thats 6 years earlier. Kareem and Cooper make a big difference. The 96 Bulls beat Seattle 4-2. The 85 Lakers are much more explosive then that seattle team. The supersonics were not as good in half-court sets because they did not have the dominant center like the Lakers had in Kareem.

Kareem was MVP of the 85 Finals

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kflo

the 85 lakers did have the single greatest defensive matchup against jordan in league history, in cooper. and they had a guy the bulls had no answer for in kareem. they'd have an extremely difficult defensive matchup in worthy, and obviously magic is a problem matchup-wise as well. mcadoo off the bench.

and remember, as good as the lakers were offensively in the regular season, they were a team that saw the finals as the real prize, and geared for that. the 85 lakers actually scored 126 ppg in the playoffs. their ts% was higher than in the reg season (def was about the same). they outscored teams by 10 ppg in the playoffs. they turned it over less playing a faster pace.

bulls offensive numbers were down across the board in the playoffs (defensive numbers were better) - they still were +10 ppg in the playoffs (down from +12 ppg in reg season). their ts% was pretty identical to their opponents (they just controlled possessions). jordan was pretty human in the finals against the tough defense of the sonics.

what the bulls accomplished in the regular season was remarkable, and they were awesome in the playoffs as well. i think the lakers were better overall and the tougher matchup.

i don't think la can afford to go to the 3 guard offense too much though, because the bulls would pound them on the glass. scott was still very athletic in '85 and would give jordan a tougher time than he did in '91 (which isn't saying much), but he wouldn't play as much as usual.

Derek

Part of the problem was Ervin Johnson got hurt around game 3(?) and Frank Brickowski ended up starting games 5 and 6. I can't recall if he started game 4, but regardless, Brickowski got a ton of playing time in the final half of the series. If Johnson stayed healthy, it may have been a completely different series.

kflo

well, they went down 3-0 with johnson, who barely played the first 2 games anyway. brick started games 4-6.

Jordan23Forever

And the Lakers didn't have defense anywhere NEAR that of Seattle, so...


Jordan actually averaged 34.8 ppg on 49.8% shooting against Cooper from 1988-1990 (6 meetings). Those are the only years there is data from. I know that '88-'90 Jordan isn't '96 Jordan (and '88-'90 Coop isn't '85 Coop), but there are guys who held Jordan to worse averages than that, though they usually had a ton of help (e.g., Dumars/Rodman). So I wouldn't call Cooper the best matchup on Jordan in history, really.

That actually had less to do with the defense and more to do with him missing 2-4 open shots per game that he normally makes (e.g., open baseline 12 footers, open tip-ins and layups etc.). He was just off that entire series for whatever reason. Believe me, I have the entire series on DVD. Yes, Seattle played great defense, but he was also just off on top of that which made his percentages far worse than usual. He wouldn't have shot 51% or anything, but he wouldn't have shot 43% or whatever he ended up shooting, either (probably around 46-47% if I had to guess). There are also other factors at play, including key players like Pippen, Kerr, and Kukoc going ice cold that series (check their numbers, like 25-30% shooting combined) and allowing Seattle to focus almost exclusively on Jordan with constant doubles and traps, a luxury you're not going to have against Chicago every time out. So I wouldn't read into it too much. Regardless, Seattle's team defense was certainly worlds better than LA's; I don't think that Cooper alone (without the constant doubles and traps and illegal defenses that Seattle employed) can equal Seattle's defensive pressure on Jordan.

da bully

i wish one of the laker fans would explain how 185 pound cooper would do against 235 pound jordan in the post? every time this debate comes up its how the bulls defense is gonna stop the high powered offense of the lakers. well, whose gonna stop pippen whose gonna stop kukoc (remember, he was a very good post player) and who on the lakers is gonna keep rodman of the boards? i think it would be 4-2 bulls.

da bully

and by the way as i have stated before i firmly believe the 97 bulls are better than the 96 version simply because they had a solid lowpost prensence in brian williams. now he is by no means better than kareem but he would definately give him something to do do low. that to me was the most complete team ever in the nba. 97 BULLS GREATEST TEAM EVER.

kflo

cooper made his last all-defense team in '88, and only played 16 minutes against jordan that year, missing the 2nd game. in '89, he played more, but wasn't the same player. still, jordan was 18-43 in fg's that year against la. in '90, coops last year, jordan had 15 to's in 2 games.

kflo

cooper effectively guarded bird in the post. he was very strong. he'd be fine in the post.

da bully