Originally Posted by JPSeraph

da bully: I should have been specific; REGULAR SEASON over achievers. Just the consumate pros, playing to win every night out. As opposed, say, to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, who may have been just as dominant (relative to their competition from 00-02), but were quite manic in the regular season (largely taking on Shaq's personality IMO).

It's my way of saying that 72 wins, or great regular season off/def efficiciency, may be slightly over rating them next to any team which under achieved (as some would say the 85 Lakers did).

Another reason why I support those 92 Bulls even though their record was 67 wins and the roster doesn't have as many impressive names.

Originally Posted by Hakeem

^ Yup. The Bulls won so easily because Horace Grant was injured. He already had an arm injury, and it was aggravated when Pippen (I think) slammed into him in Game 1. So he played about half a game in the entire series. Nick Anderson was also injured, if I remember correctly. That was a really good side, but they had little depth. The loss of starters was a huge setback.

The Bulls of the second threepeat were 13-11 against 50+ win teams with good centers. It's not a good thing when Luc Longley is your best option for guarding Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Originally Posted by JPSeraph

regarding Jordan's weight:
1) From what I gather, he was 195 upon entry into the league (pre-draft or pre-1984-85 Bulls camp measurements I assume).
2) He was listed at 198 (might as well be 200) from sometime in the late 1980's until his retirement in 1993, but reportedly started lifting for strength and weight gain after one of his losses to the Pistons in the playoffs; maybe 1989 or 1990 (someone else probably remembers the exact year).
3) As of the 1991 Finals he was probably in the 205-210 range, but by 1992 he was closer to 215 (I've heard anything from 212-214).
4) I don't know what he weighed during his comeback in 94-95, but he came into training camp a very lean (something like 4% body fat) 216 in 95-96 after working out all summer.
5) He continued to be listed at 216 for the rest of his career (including the wizards comeback), but as bballlife said, he did look a little buffer by 97-98, so 220 doesn't seem improbable.
6) In 01-02, he was trying to play SF (with Rip at 2), and did come in weighing more than usual; I've heard anything from 225-235. (As an aside, Artest busted MJ's ribs in a summer pickup game which set MJ back a good 4-6 weeks in training, so he might have come in leaner otherwise as he was working off a retirement paunch)
7) For 02-03, he trimmed down - playing against larger, stronger SF's wasn't helping his knees and Stack was on board now - to 210 for preseason. It seems likely that he probably finished his career around 215 or so.

So, the poster who said MJ was 235 in the post...not even close. He was almost always in terrific shape (i.e. extremely low body fat%, similar to Karl Malone), but that typically meant maximizing the strength he would need to absorb contact and post up smaller guards with the quickness he needed to outmaneuver larger opponents. Playing with Pippen for so many years definitely helped MJ in finding this ideal ratio since Pip could take on many of the tougher/stronger opponents.

On with the actual debate!

Originally Posted by bballlife

I said they held him in check, and they did, as in not allowing him to play the way he wanted. In that 4 game series, he had a decent game 1 (27 points 6 boards in a blowout) then one really good game (game 2) then an awful game 3 (17 points on 42%) and a decent game 4 (held to only 13 FGA)

Originally Posted by Hakeem

27 ppg on 64% from the field.

Originally Posted by bballlife

Watch the 4 games, then read my post again.

Originally Posted by Hakeem

^ He was a poor defender, IMO. And for his ability to hit the mid-range jump shot, he produced very little.