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jericho · 03-12-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

It's laughable to put Magic/Bird alongside Duncan and D-Rob.
And Wade and T-Mac as good as Karl freking Malone?

Man, you ARE twisted...

You're pretty quick to be dismissive of the most decorated power forward ever, and a guy who a few months ago turned in one of the most dominant Finals performances ever. You can say that a guy like Wade isn't far enough along in his career to be assessed in the category of all-time greats. You could say that he needs to keep up that level of performance for X number of years to convince you. But don't act like he's a penguin who got lost on his way back to the zoo. The guy is a great player.

PauloCatarino · 03-13-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jericho

You're pretty quick to be dismissive of the most decorated power forward ever,

Sure i am.
From the early 80's till now the only player to have reached, IMHO, the plateau of excelence Bird and Magic played upon was Jordan. Not anyone else. that includes Shaq. And it surely includes Tim duncan.

Quote:

and a guy who a few months ago turned in one of the most dominant Finals performances ever.

I wouldn't say "ever2, be he did have a monster series...

Quote:

You can say that a guy like Wade isn't far enough along in his career to be assessed in the category of all-time greats. You could say that he needs to keep up that level of performance for X number of years to convince you. But don't act like he's a penguin who got lost on his way back to the zoo. The guy is a great player.

If i gave a crap about a player's ONE season, i would be wetting myself thinking of T-Mac a couple of years ago and Kobe last year. Yup, i don't give a crap. Untill Wade has at the very least 5 great seasonns, i will never dream of putting him in the same sentence as the guy who, in 19 seasons, delivered a 25-10-3 average.

kflo · 03-14-2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minstrel

Sorry, I didn't really use your Pippen/Bird/Magic scale. Outside of perhaps Ewing, I'd say all of them were between 9.9 and 9.5 on such a scale and trying to jam 6 players into 4 points of variance doesn't seem to allow for much ability to differentiate players. On the scale I used, Pippen would be a 9.3 or 9.4.

As for Pippen/Barkley, they were rumoured to be traded for each other in their primes (the year Jordan first retired), so at least at the time they were seen as pretty similar. I don't think Barkley was so much more dominant than Pippen offensively that it overwhelms the difference between all-time great defense and legitimately bad defense. Pippen was a better ball-handler and passer, Barkley was a significantly better scorer. Barkley's bigger edge is probably on the boards, where he was great. But Pippen himself was good. All told, I rank Barkley higher, but I don't think they're incomparable.

the rumors then were for kemp, so that kemp could take horace's spot, and kukoc pippen's spot. that's how i remember it. and partly driven from the fallout of those famous 1.8 seconds. don't remember barkley rumors in phx.

**Minstrel** · 03-14-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kflo

the rumors then were for kemp, so that kemp could take horace's spot, and kukoc pippen's spot. that's how i remember it. and partly driven from the fallout of those famous 1.8 seconds. don't remember barkley rumors in phx.

I remember Pippen and Barkley standing together during the All-Star game and the commentators using that moment to mention that the two had been in trade rumours, to be swapped for one another.

I also remember the Kemp rumours.

All of this, as I recall, happened before Pippen refused to enter the game, so I can't see how it could be "driven" by that. It was during the 1993-94 season, when Pippen was the All-Star game MVP. The refusal to go in happened in the playoffs of that season.

PauloCatarino · 03-14-2007, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kflo

the rumors then were for kemp, so that kemp could take horace's spot, and kukoc pippen's spot. that's how i remember it. and partly driven from the fallout of those famous 1.8 seconds. don't remember barkley rumors in phx.

It was Shawn Kemp.

And Sonics' fans nixed (sp?) the deal with some uproar in the media...

Bball_Doctor · 03-14-2007, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikos

If you could assign a rating to these players 1-10, what would they be?
(In increments of .1, like 9.5, 9.7 etc…). Lets say Michael Jordan is a perfect 10, and Magic Johnson and Larry Bird are 9.8, and Scottie Pippen is a 9.5.

Shaquille O’Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Patrick Ewing

(Sorry for the long thread, but I want to see how heavily some people weigh matchups and playoff success vs. regular season production and the objective evaluation of a player.)

Interesting thread but your ranking of Pippen at 9.5 doesn't leave much room for separation. I will still go by your 1-10 rule by disregard your rankings.

At their absolute primes:

Get these out of the way...

Jordan 9.8
Magic 9.75
Bird 9.75
Pippen 8.9 Just to compare KG is around 9.1 for me.

Shaq 9.7 - Absolutely dominant on offense during his peak. Underrated on defense. Look at his Finals stats. For me postseason stats mean more than regular season because really great players step up their games. If he cared to stay in shape like in 99-00 he would probably be 9.8 or even 9.85.

Hakeem 9.65 - Defensive beast. Not as offensively dominant as Shaq but
check his postseason numbers. During his peak, he dominated one of the greatest defenders of all-time in Robinson during his Robinson's MVP year. Although he has no scoring titles he was arguably the most offensively skilled center of his era with his dreamshake, midrange jumper, and underrated passing. Could also take an opponent of the dribble.

Robinson 9.5 - Since many people like to quote PER for production efficiency. His PER numbers don't lie. In terms of production you can
even argue he was better than Hakeem at least in the regular season but PER doesn't tell the whole story. Hakeem vs. Robinson in 95' was as one sided as you can get and he has 0 rings without Duncan. Regular season he was close to Hakeem but postseason is where the separation is really evident.

Duncan 9.35 - Duncan's greatest value is what he brings to his team rather
than his individual stats but 24-12 on a slower pace team is terrific. He also competes in arguably the strongest PF era.

Malone 9.5 - Depends what part of his career you consider his prime. With the above four their peaks are pretty much clear. Malone in his prime was a 6'9 Shaq. Unstoppable in the paint and incredible during the run. He was basically a better version of Amare in 05' with more offensive skills and defense.

Barkley 9.2 - People would take Pippen over Barkley? Barkley was an anomaly for his position. Only player other than Bird to get 25-10-5 in a season since the 80s I believe. Pippen would never have a game 7 against the Sonics like Barkley did.

Ewing 9.3 - Underrated defensively during his peak. Offensively he developed an unstoppable jumper.

Bball_Doctor · 03-14-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minstrel

I remember Pippen and Barkley standing together during the All-Star game and the commentators using that moment to mention that the two had been in trade rumours, to be swapped for one another.

I also remember the Kemp rumours.

All of this, as I recall, happened before Pippen refused to enter the game, so I can't see how it could be "driven" by that. It was during the 1993-94 season, when Pippen was the All-Star game MVP. The refusal to go in happened in the playoffs of that season.

When were there Barkley rumours? Was it in 94? I never heard it and Barkley just came off his MVP season but was oft injured in 94. Plus it couldn't have happened in the off-season after the all-star game since the Suns picked up Manning and with CB34 and KJ projected to be healthy were by far the team to beat in 95.

It was Kemp. The Kemp rumours were at full steam in the off-season. Didn't hear anything during the all-star game. But kflo is right the infamous 1.8 had a part to do with it but in truth Pippen and Krause hated each other. Almost like Shaq and Kobe. The trade rumours were Pippen and somebody for Kemp and Carlos Rogers and it was quite close to happening. Not sure if it was the Sonic fans who nixed the deal but the Sonics just came off an embarrassing 1st round loss which they blamed on team maturity.

Jordan23Forever · 03-15-2007, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bball_Doctor

Barkley 9.2 - People would take Pippen over Barkley? Barkley was an anomaly for his position. Only player other than Bird to get 25-10-5 in a season since the 80s I believe. Pippen would never have a game 7 against the Sonics like Barkley did.

To some people it doesn't matter because of Pippen's "defense."

Anyone who would take prime Pippen over prime Barkley is in some sort of fog. Barkley was a dominant, dominant player; Pippen wasn't.

**Minstrel** · 03-15-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bball_Doctor

When were there Barkley rumours? Was it in 94? I never heard it and Barkley just came off his MVP season but was oft injured in 94. Plus it couldn't have happened in the off-season after the all-star game since the Suns picked up Manning and with CB34 and KJ projected to be healthy were by far the team to beat in 95.

Well, as I said, the rumours I recall were during the season, not the off-season. During the All-Star game, commentators talked about how there were rumours circulating about the two being traded for each other.

At the time, Pippen was seen as about as big a star as anyone. Perhaps a notch below the two centers, Olajuwon and Robinson, but as good a forward as any in the league.

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