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BadBaronRudigor · 04-03-2007, 08:07 AM

I will agree that Alcindor was considered better than Walton, not that David Thompson was.

Here is the ESPN ratings kflo talks about:
ESPN did an excellent job with its "20 Greatest College Basketball Players" show recently. It went like this: 1. Lew Alcindor, 2. Bill Walton, 3. Bill Russell, 4. Oscar Robertson, 5. Wilt Chamberlain, 6. Pete Maravich, 7. Larry Bird, 8. David Thompson, 9. Jerry Lucas, 10. Patrick Ewing, 11. Jerry West, 12. Elvin Hayes, 13. Ralph Sampson, 14. Christian Laettner, 15. Magic Johnson, 16. Michael Jordan, 17. George Mikan, 18. Tom Gola, 19. Tim Duncan, 20. Bill Bradley.

Jordan23Forever · 04-03-2007, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBaronRudigor

Second . . .

Yes, Jordan was more of a dominant player at age 40 than Kareem. But . . . Kareem at age 40 was much more valuable to his team. Kareem was still a key piece of a championship team providing post scoring and some shot blocking to the Magic led Lakers. Jordan came back with a rebuilding Wizards team and tried to take a team that was just starting to develop and make it a win-now team (a) trading Richard Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse (b) dominating the ball so that the other team options tended to get frozen out (he wasn't that mobile anymore but mainly relied on his size/strength to post up effectively or jacked up a relatively ineffective jump shot and (c) took out his frustrations on the Wizards young players, particularly straight out of HS Kwame Brown, destroying the confidence of a player projected to be the future of the franchise (still evident in Kwame's very hesitant offensive play v. Kwame's superior offense early in the season his freshman year) and making sure that Kwame would be looking to leave Washington at the first opportunity (though we did get Caron Butler who is terrific). On the whole, Jordan was a net minus to the Wizards on the court; he was, however, a big boost at the ticket office so for the franchise, might be considered a positive or a negative. Kareem, however, was clearly a positive.

And yet despite all this -- amazingly -- he somehow managed to average 25.2 pts/6.3 reb/5.2 ast/43.4% FG through the ASG and had his team, who had won just 19 games the entire previous season, in the 6th spot in the East with a 26-20 record before he hurt his knee. Go figure.

KillWill · 04-03-2007, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xray

I think the point's been made - I too have a problem with "fastest man" or "strongest man" because of the fact it's impossible to take the entire world's population into account.

But these are two different players, with two different skill sets who play two different positions - how exactly do you guage their greatness when compared to each other?

i actually agree with you for the most part on this one, however, the game of basketball dictates a premieum on height. put kareem and jordan on the same squad, and jordan would have to defer to kareem, i don't care who is coaching (we saw what phil had to do with an earily similarly dominant big and explosive wing). it would be foolish not to exploit match-ups in the paint that give you much higher percentage looks, closer to the rim. however, come 4th quarter, especially towards the end, we all know whose time it would be to shine . . .

big men dominate the game of basketball. i think that's why jordan is so annointed: b/c he is an annomaly. before him (and probably since him) no team has been as dominant w/o a dominant post presence.

and sadly, although he had some very bright nights as a wizard, that wasn't so long ago that we ALL have rosey memories of it. most nights were not so special. what was special is that jordan was still playing, often with the fire of old, but less often came the same results. once again, when the results aren't there (winning) guys tout stats, and when the numbers aren't there, guys scream about results. odd no?

Gilgamesh · 04-03-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diable

Try asking someone who saw both of them play in college.I'll repeat it once and for all Thompson was the GOAT in college and this is the consensus opinion among those who actually saw him play.I'm willing to bet that John Wooden would agree.

Bill Walton isn't even top 15,and anyone who thinks so is crazier than him

So you saw them play?

Every ranking I have seen has listed Kareem, Walton, and Oscar higher than Thompson and these rankings are done by people who saw them play.

Also that win over UCLA is overhyped. Yes Thompson played great going by his stats in that game (28 pts, 6 rebs, 10 asts) but so did Walton (29 pts, 18 rebs, 4 asts) and the game was double overtime loss by only three points.

Gilgamesh · 04-03-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBaronRudigor

Second . . .

Yes, Jordan was more of a dominant player at age 40 than Kareem. But . . . Kareem at age 40 was much more valuable to his team. Kareem was still a key piece of a championship team providing post scoring and some shot blocking to the Magic led Lakers. Jordan came back with a rebuilding Wizards team and tried to take a team that was just starting to develop and make it a win-now team (a) trading Richard Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse (b) dominating the ball so that the other team options tended to get frozen out (he wasn't that mobile anymore but mainly relied on his size/strength to post up effectively or jacked up a relatively ineffective jump shot and (c) took out his frustrations on the Wizards young players, particularly straight out of HS Kwame Brown, destroying the confidence of a player projected to be the future of the franchise (still evident in Kwame's very hesitant offensive play v. Kwame's superior offense early in the season his freshman year) and making sure that Kwame would be looking to leave Washington at the first opportunity (though we did get Caron Butler who is terrific). On the whole, Jordan was a net minus to the Wizards on the court; he was, however, a big boost at the ticket office so for the franchise, might be considered a positive or a negative. Kareem, however, was clearly a positive.

Kareem didn't have to carry his team when he was 39 or 40 as much as Jordan did. Kareem became like a role player. In 2001-2002 Jordan was the man for the Wiz. In 2002-2003 Jordan was obviously not his old self anymore or even near the Jordan pre-knee surgery the year before but he still carried a lot of the load.

In 2002 before his surgery Jordan was top 5 MVP candidate. I think people forget how crap his teammates were. We are talking a starting 5 of Jahidi White, Laetnerr, Rip, and Whitney. This is as bad as some of TMac's Orlando teams but before injury Jordan led Wiz to 26-21 and 7 game improvement already over last year by all star break and if you discount the Wiz bad start 24-12 in their last 36 games before all star break. Jordan was also playing at much higher level. In January, Jordan was averaging 26.8-6.5-4.6. But after all star break he played awhile hurt before he decided to get surgery. If Jordan's knee didn't finally catch up with his age the Wiz would most likely make playoffs and who knows how good Jordan's stats would be since he was on pace for 25-5-5 by all star break.

PauloCatarino · 04-03-2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilgamesh

Kareem didn't have to carry his team when he was 39 or 40 as much as Jordan did. Kareem became like a role player. In 2001-2002 Jordan was the man for the Wiz. In 2002-2003 Jordan was obviously not his old self anymore or even near the Jordan pre-knee surgery the year before but he still carried a lot of the load.

In 2002 before his surgery Jordan was top 5 MVP candidate. I think people forget how crap his teammates were. We are talking a starting 5 of Jahidi White, Laetnerr, Rip, and Whitney. This is as bad as some of TMac's Orlando teams but before injury Jordan led Wiz to 26-21 and 7 game improvement already over last year by all star break and if you discount the Wiz bad start 24-12 in their last 36 games before all star break. Jordan was also playing at much higher level. In January, Jordan was averaging 26.8-6.5-4.6. But after all star break he played awhile hurt before he decided to get surgery. If Jordan's knee didn't finally catch up with his age the Wiz would most likely make playoffs and who knows how good Jordan's stats would be since he was on pace for 25-5-5 by all star break.

Now i've read it all...

Gilgamesh · 04-03-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Now i've read it all...

He actually was considered as a top 5 candidate that year before his surgery.

The only player I would vote before Jordan at that time was Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, and Kidd. TMac did not play his best ball until after all star break. If Jordan finished the season at the same pace as what he did by all star break he would have 25-5-5 season and Wiz would have won 45 games which is a 26 game improvement over previous season. He would definitely be top 5 MVP candidate at season's end as well if that was the case.

PauloCatarino · 04-03-2007, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilgamesh

He actually was considered as a top 5 candidate that year before his surgery.

Link me.

Gilgamesh · 04-03-2007, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PauloCatarino

Link me.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/ins.../burns_jordan/

Doesn't say top 5 but mentions Jordan as a MVP candidate at midseason which basically equates to top 5.

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