PauloCatarino

[quote=Astral]
P.S. As for Finals MVP, I think the Trophy is vastly overrated. Someone has to win it, and there are only 12 candidates, or considering playoff rotations, there are only 8 candidates (excluding Jerry West fiasco decades ago). Chauncey Billups won a Finals MVP, so what?[/QUOTE]

First of all, Shaq should have won it.

There's no way to deny the importance of being named Finals MVP, wether it's Cedric Maxwell, JAmes Worthy or Joe Dumars winning it. Finals MVP means the guy that helped the most his team to win. Simple as that.

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kflo

kareem had more individual dominance than magic, not just longevity. he was THE dominant player for a decade. magic was ARGUABLY the greater player for 4 of the 5 titles, kareem clearly the better player on the '80 title team, arguable on the '82 title team. those first 3 title teams of the 80s relied heavily on both of them, magic to run the show, kareem to be the focal point of the half court offense. they were co-stars, and it worked because they both accepted their functions within those teams. '87 was when the reigns were fully passed to magic.

Astral

I respectfully disagree.

I'm fully aware of what the trophy means. I'm also convinced that Billups, aka Mr. Big Shot chokes in the playoffs often, and did not play nearly as well as a real "Finals MVP" should. It just means he arguably played better than 7 other people. It's an overrated trophy.

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kflo

what specifically do you disagree with and why? for example, you disagree that kareem was more individually dominant? you disagree that the league mvp wasn't the best player on his team in 1980? that it was arguable in 1982?

Astral

IMO Magic grabbed the bull by the horns in/post 1980 Finals.

__________________
"You need chaos in your soul to give birth to a dancing star."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

kflo

i have no problem with thinking that magic was the better player, but they were undeniably co-owners of the team. the 1/2 court offense revolved around kareem. he was the first option. kareem was the dominant player of the '80 finals until missing game 6.

Astral

If you go far enough you always come to just one man.
For example, I'm a fan of NJN, and they have 2 major stars - Carter and Kidd. Carter is by far the first option on offense. That doesn't mean he's the most important for the team - Kidd is. Same way for KAJ and Magic. Magic was more fundamental to showtime LAL's success than KAJ was. The same way Jordan was more important for CHI than Scottie Pippen was.

Where I was going with this argument is that I think KAJ is a top 5 player and I love him, but when comparing him against other greats it's a little unfair to say that he's won so many championships, because he wasn't THE guy on most of them. If I was going to make an argument for Robert Parish to be in Top 10, would you think it's fair to say that he won 3 titles and thus belongs in Top 10? What about Robert Horry?
This is the kind of reasoning used to hand out MVP trophies today - best player from the best team. Not the most valuable player to a team, but the best player from best team.

__________________
"You need chaos in your soul to give birth to a dancing star."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

kflo

there was a time where it wasn't that important who was designated "the man" and who was designated co-star. jordan/pippen contributed mightily to changing that. but with magic/kareem, there was a coexistence that allowed them both to embrace their roles within their teams.

i don't think anyone is saying you only look at titles, but you also don't dismiss them when you play a central role on great teams. you don't just give them all to magic only. again, in '80, it was unquestionably kareem's team, impossible to put magic's value ahead of kareem's, even if we obviously acknowledge magic had a huge impact on them winning. it's also simply a function of when they joined together. had magic played with a younger kareem, they likely would have won just as much or more, and kareem would have been the guy. they were a great tandem, both allowing the other to shine without overshadowing. jordan/pippen was much more 1-sided. there was a clear pecking order that didn't exist on those laker teams. kareem was the legend already.

PauloCatarino

It's not fair because Parish was never remotely as good as KAJ, and Horry was at best, an average starter on 2 championship teams.

Even if you discount KAJ's championships (and, IMHO, he was the yeam's best player in 3 of them) and MVP's (isn't KAJ the record-holder with 6?) you can't deny his greatness. Not only in his peak years, but also well into his 30's. KAJ's astounding level of longevity playing at the hghest level alone would make him Top-5.

__________________
(...) we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender (...)

Astral

I was only using it as an example that relates to championship where the man in question serves as as second fiddle to someone else.

I never discounted his championships. I said that he doesn't deserve credit for "championships" in the same way that Bird, Russell or Jordan do.
I never discounted his MVPs. IIRC he has 7.
I never denied his greatness. I've defended his greatness, and