View Poll Results: when its all said and done, who will go down as the better player?

LineOFire · 06-12-2007, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jericho

While they had/have very different games, Duncan and Olajuwon are so close in their overall peak skill level and impact that it's no wonder any effort to pick one over the other results in a huge argument.

Olajuwon is my favorite player of all time and Duncan makes me want to take a nap, but I have to put them pretty much dead even with each other. If I want to win a game or a championship series, I choose Hakeem at his peak, no question. Duncan could never have dismantled a prime Olajuwon or an up-and-coming Shaq the way Hakeem did, in my opinion. But if I want my team to get to the Finals year after year with an evolving cast, I choose Duncan--Mr. Efficiency/Consistency.

Hakeem had a more mercurial career, with mild pouts and tantrums and fluctuations in his conditioning and effort. He was an elite player from the word go, but it took several years for him to hit his stride as an MVP-caliber superstud who could carry a team deep into the postseason without another star next to him.

Duncan's peak isn't nearly as high, in my opinion, but in the end it will have been considerably longer. He came out of the starting gate at a high level and has never let up, except for a couple of injury-riddled stretches.

Both are first-ballot HoFers. Neither takes a backseat to the other, and neither deserves to be dismissed by fans on this board who are riding the jock of one or the other player.

Excellent post.

carlos710 · 06-12-2007, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakeem

Furthermore, Duncan has had superior teammates to Olajuwon nearly every season of his career. Good teammates open things up for big men. Guards who can penetrate and shoot, like Ginobili and Parker, and three point shooters, and a jump shooting frontcourt teammate like Robinson all made things a lot easier for Duncan. Not only does scoring become easier because of easy baskets created for the player and fewer double teams, but it helps the big man get more assists and cut down on turnovers. Olajuwon rarely had that kind of help, and when he did it's no coincidence that he put up his best PERs.

Michael jordan put his best PERs in the 80's, when he had little help and the bulls weren't a great team. T-Mac put a PER over 30 on a crappy Magic team a couple of years ago.

Ginobilli and Parker didn't became a factor until 2004 or so, and i was talking about 01,02 and 03.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakeem

Also, Olajuwon posted those numbers in an era in which there were many very good defensive centers and PFs (eg Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Zo, Deke, Kemp, Buck, Mason, Oak, Rodman, Cliff, Grant, McKey, Malone, Eaton, Lucas, Parish, Perkins).

Lol. I hope you didn't called Kemp, Mason, Mckey and perkins good defensive players. Even ewing wasn't exactly a great deffensive player.

Duncan had to face most of those players as well, but i agree that a bunch of them were older and less efective.

He has faced however a prime shaq, prime zo, garnett, ben wallace, rashed wallace, yao ming, brian grant, camby, k-mart, etc. and a bunch of not very good on defense but great on offense players like boozer, webber, nowitzki, amare, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakeem

Erm, David Robinson had almost the exact same PER as Duncan that year and he played 30 mpg. And although past his prime, he was still a terrific defender. Antonio Daniels and Terry Porter both had PERs of 15.5. Malik Rose had a PER of 14.8. The first Rockets title team had only only player outside of Olajuwon with a PER of more than 14.2, and had one of the worst defensive starting point guards in the history of the game.

Othis thorpe put a PER of 17.2, kenny of 15.0 and maxwell 14.2 in 92. The result ? the rockets missed the playoffs.

And loot at the minutes they played:
Antonio daniels 26.1, malik rose 21.4, terry porter 21.0

Everyone i named in the rockets played 30+ that season. Who has more impact in a basketball game ? a player with a PER of 15.0 through 40 minutes or someone putting 15.5 through 20 ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakeem

D-Rob (PER 17.8, very good defense not accounted for in PER), Tony Parker (PER 16.5), Stephen Jackson (PER 14.5, very good defense), Malik Rose (PER 16.1, good defense), Manu Ginobili (PER 14.7, above-average defense), Bruce Bowen (PER 9.1, great defense).

Limited minutes for robinson (26.2 mpg), tony parker disappeared for long stretches in the playoffs, stephen jackson a very good defender ? he never has been a good defensive player in his life, malik rose another poor defender, manu a rookie with limited minutes, bowen great defense and one of the lowest PERs in the whole league.

Dont know where you got the idea of rose and jackson being good-to very good defenders. They both are below average.

carlos710 · 06-12-2007, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 Penny

put a low IQ player but with more talent in the position of those players above.. and watch how vulnerable the Spur's become... Popovich is a genius and so is the

They already put derek anderson and stephen jackson. The result ? 1 ring and a lose in the west conference finals

**OneBadLT123** · 06-12-2007, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krstic All Star

I'd take Duncan. I still remember the days before Hakeem won undying fame as a champion - when he was nearly run out of town for being out of shape and possessing a bad attitude. I'll take the player who doesn't nearly get himself traded.

In any event, aren't we all stretching things a bit by comparing a center (no doubt about it) and a PF who often plays C late in games? If this thread were about Duncan v. Malone, it'd be a lot shorter.

That was not entirely true. Hakeem and then owner Charlie Thomas were at ends with each other, and Charlie was unwilling to build a team that was able to complement Hakeem. Also, during that stretch, Hakeem had back problems, and Charlie Thomas and his management called Hakeem out on allegations of Hakeem faking the injury.

Thats when Hakeem said it was enough, and that he would consider being traded. The deal would have been Stanley Roberts and Cash considerations for Hakeem. But Charlie and Hakeem talked out their problems, and the following year Charlie sold the team.

It was never about being out of shape, it was Charlie Thomas and Hakeem at ends with each other for failing to build a franchise. It is a very similar situation right now in Minnesota. (poorly managed team, stingy owner, and unwillingness to build a positive atmosphere)

**OneBadLT123** · 06-12-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wightnoise

Also... Tim was 10 - 0 against Hakeem in their careers.

Right, since Hakeem was nearly 40, on the brink of retirement, and missed almost 40 games a year in that span. Come on, look at games played/age before you put numbers out like that.

**Hakeem** · 06-13-2007, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carlos710

Michael jordan put his best PERs in the 80's, when he had little help and the bulls weren't a great team. T-Mac put a PER over 30 on a crappy Magic team a couple of years ago.

Big men, I said. It's big men who see by far the greatest fluctuations in defensive attention based on the quality of their teammates. It's big men who need to be fed the ball in the post before they can create offense.

Quote:

Ginobilli and Parker didn't became a factor until 2004 or so, and i was talking about 01,02 and 03.

Ginobili's PER was 14.7 in '03. That's superior to all but one of Olajuwon's teammates in '94.
Tony Parker had a PER of 16.5 in '03. Olajuwon didn't have a single player on his team in '94 with a PER that high.

Quote:

Lol. I hope you didn't called Kemp, Mason, Mckey and perkins good defensive players. Even ewing wasn't exactly a great deffensive player.

These are among the best defensive players ever at their positions!

This isn't even debatable. They were fantastic defenders and universally acknowledged as such at the time.

Quote:

He has faced however a prime shaq, prime zo, garnett, ben wallace, rashed wallace, yao ming, brian grant, camby, k-mart, etc.

I forgot to mention Otis Thorpe from when he was in Sacramento. Also, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Moses, LaSalle Thompson and AC Green. That's at least twice as many quality defensive big men.

Quote:

Othis thorpe put a PER of 17.2, kenny of 15.0 and maxwell 14.2 in 92. The result ? the rockets missed the playoffs.

Olajuwon was playing with an injured hamstring that year, which caused his production to dip. And the Rockets lost 10 of the 12 games he missed. There was horrible chemistry between players, coaches and management. It was talked about a lot, since the Rockets publicly accused Olajuwon of faking the injury. Pretty much everyone who was watching at the time would remember.

Quote:

And loot at the minutes they played:
Antonio daniels 26.1, malik rose 21.4, terry porter 21.0

That was another strength of that team -- their ridiculous depth. No one outside of Duncan had to play a huge amount of minutes. They had five rotation guys who had better PERs than the second-best of Olajuwon's teammates in '94. In fact that covers every player who played more than 20 mpg except for Sean Elliott, Avery Johnson and Danny Ferry. But Elliott and AJ were both good defenders. And remember, we're comparing probably the single worst supporting cast of Duncan's prime to one of Olajuwon's very best over his 18-year career -- and Duncan's still looks better.

Quote:

Limited minutes for robinson (26.2 mpg), tony parker disappeared for long stretches in the playoffs, stephen jackson a very good defender ? he never has been a good defensive player in his life, malik rose another poor defender, manu a rookie with limited minutes, bowen great defense and one of the lowest PERs in the whole league.

Six supporting guys with better PERs than Olajuwon's second-best teammate in '94.
If you want to talk about disappearing in the playoffs, how about we mention Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith?
And yes, Stephen Jackson is a very good defender. Has been for a while. During the Mavs-Warriors series, a couple of writers were actually recalling his defensive efforts for the Spurs in '03.
Malik Rose was also a good defender. Even though he is a mere shell of his former self, he still shows flashes of high quality defense for the Knicks (before committing a turnover and bricking a couple of jumpers -- but that's irrelevant).

hroz · 06-13-2007, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jericho

While they had/have very different games, Duncan and Olajuwon are so close in their overall peak skill level and impact that it's no wonder any effort to pick one over the other results in a huge argument.

Olajuwon is my favorite player of all time and Duncan makes me want to take a nap, but I have to put them pretty much dead even with each other. If I want to win a game or a championship series, I choose Hakeem at his peak, no question. Duncan could never have dismantled a prime Olajuwon or an up-and-coming Shaq the way Hakeem did, in my opinion. But if I want my team to get to the Finals year after year with an evolving cast, I choose Duncan--Mr. Efficiency/Consistency.

Hakeem had a more mercurial career, with mild pouts and tantrums and fluctuations in his conditioning and effort. He was an elite player from the word go, but it took several years for him to hit his stride as an MVP-caliber superstud who could carry a team deep into the postseason without another star next to him.

Duncan's peak isn't nearly as high, in my opinion, but in the end it will have been considerably longer. He came out of the starting gate at a high level and has never let up, except for a couple of injury-riddled stretches.

Both are first-ballot HoFers. Neither takes a backseat to the other, and neither deserves to be dismissed by fans on this board who are riding the jock of one or the other player.

Near perfect post.

LOL I love this comparison they are the big 2 of the the two "twin towers"

But Sampson got injured and that twin tower collapsed.
If Sampson had stayed fit who knows how the Rockets would have continued to go?
In 99' the Spurs had both twin towers playing amazing ball.(comparable to the Rockets in 86' but in the FINALS the Rockets faced the legendary Celtics & Spurs faced the 8th seed Knicks from the EAST. that was struggling with injuries to Ewing.)

In 03' Robinson was retiring and everybody wanted to do it for him while Parker & Ginobili were emerging definetaly the closest the Spurs have to the Hakeems 94' win but Olajuwon's 94 triump was ridiculous you look at the side the ROckets put on the court and it you wonder how they got a championship out of it.
Olajuwon that year was MVP, FINALS MVP & DPOY.
Duncan had a talented Robinson, Parker, GInobili . Plus Bowen led the league in 3p% & was on the 2nd All -D Team)(Lots of shooters on that team aswell D.Ferry, S.Jackson, S.Smith & S.Kerr

In 05' & 07' Duncan is really doing it beside an energetic Parker & Giobili. (05')(07')Both remind me of (95')

But your right Duncan is more consistent than Hakeem but Hakeem at his best would embarrass Duncan.

NOTE:
Wish the Rockets had not run into the Sonics 93' or 96' would have made things very interesting.
Wish Karl Malone's numerous fous were called especially the one where he tackles Drexler in 97'.
I wish I wish I know.....................

PS I will admit that i might be biased Hakeem was what got me into basketball to begin with. In the early 90s everyone was a Bulls supportter but I didnt think they were so flash to watch I became a Rockets supportter after watching Hakeem there is nobody I prefer watching.

PPS on personality remember Hakeem while flashy on the court never got any major sponsorship deals because of his thick Nigerian accent. He wasnt considered marketable. I dont know what sort of deal Duncan has.......(if he has one)

carlos710 · 06-13-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakeem

Big men, I said. It's big men who see by far the greatest fluctuations in defensive attention based on the quality of their teammates. It's big men who need to be fed the ball in the post before they can create offense.

No matter the position you play, if you put great production your PER will reflect it. It has more to do with age/shape/being-in-your-prime than teammates. Kareem posted his best seasons as far as PER goes in the 70's, before magic joined him. Shaq posted PER's over 28 with and without kobe, from 98 to 03 he posted over 28.8 every year, and there were a bunch of changes on the lakers between those years (and he also posted over 28 with the magic)

The fact is, if you produce, PER will reward you. If you dont, then dont.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hakeem

Ginobili's PER was 14.7 in '03. That's superior to all but one of Olajuwon's teammates in '94.
Tony Parker had a PER of 16.5 in '03. Olajuwon didn't have a single player on his team in '94 with a PER that high.

94 vs 03 ? Lets see:

Kenny smith/casell vs Parker/claxton
Maxwell/Elie vs Jackson/Ginobilli (rookie)
Horry vs Bowen
Thorpe/Olajuwon vs Robinson/Duncan

As for PG's i prefer the rockets combo. Casell even as a rookie was a better player than claxton. None of the group are good defenders (and no, parker is not one so dont overrate him please) but the rockets at least had 1 experienced player on smith and they both were much bet

View Poll Results: when its all said and done, who will go down as the better player?

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