Diophantos

So what I'm asking is: best player to never play a single minute in the NBA? I.e. No Arvydas Sabonis, no Mel Daniels, etc.

Thoughts? I don't have any really knockout selections but to my mind the competition probably falls into 2 main categories:

1) International players who never came over
Guys like Oscar Schmidt, Dejan Bodiroga etc.

2) Guys who spent their entire career in the ABA (or other domestic leagues I guess)
For example, Roger Brown, Warren Jabali.

Then outside these two there could be great college players who somehow hit tragedy and never made it (Len Bias is the only one I can think of right now) or streetball legends (like Demetrius "Hook" Mitchell).

I'm not an expert on any of these categories (though I am in the middle of reading Terry Pluto's book Loose Balls about the ABA so I'm working on the 2nd one) so I'm sure there are guys in this debate that I don't know much about. So what do people think?

__________________
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

- Stephen Crane

jericho

Oscar Schmidt was the first guy who came to mind when I saw the thread title.

The Len Bias category could also include Hank Gathers of Loyola-Marymount fame.

__________________
Favorite players: Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Bill Russell, Alex English, Kiki Vandeweghe, Sidney Moncrief, Lafayette Lever, Dan Issel, Bobby Jones, Julius Erving, Rick Barry, John Havlicek, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West...and Brooks Thompson

Auggie

gonna be Yi prolly

white360

Ronnie fields

__________________
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...00-sidebar.jpg

Diophantos

Okay, I'm doing some research and collecting some quotes...this is a subject that interests me today. I'll be working on adding to this list...keep up the suggestions.

Oscar Schmidt
6'8" SG/SF from Brazil
Made his legend in: Brazil, Olympics and other international competitions
Big Moments: Dropping 46 pts in a comeback win over the US in the 1987 Pan-Am Games gold medal match, Averaging 42 ppg in the 1988 Olympics
Wikipedia: "He is considered one of the best players never to have competed in the NBA."
Also author of one of my favorite quotes ever, when asked why he took all the shots and his teammates only set picks for him: "Some people, they play the piano. And some people, they move the piano."

Dejan Bodiroga
6'8" SG/SF from Brazil
Made his legend in: Various European leagues, International competitions
Accomplishments: too many to list, including 2-time Euroleague Final 4 MVP, 2-time Greek League MVP, Spanish League MVP, World Championship Finals MVP, etc.
Wikipedia: "Many basketball observers consider him the best player never to play for a National Basketball Association team."

Sergei Belov
6'3" G from Russia
Made his legend in: Soviet League, Euro-League, Olympics
Accomplishments: 11-time USSR champion with CSKA Moscow, 2-time Euro-League Champion, 1972 Olympic Gold Medal (controversially), In 1991 named "Best European Player Ever" by FIBA, 1st international player in the Hall of Fame
Wikipedia: "Belov is considered to be one of the best non-American basketball players of all time."

Demetrius "Hook" Mitchell
5'9" G from Oakland, CA
Made his legend in: Bay Area streetball
Legendary story: Dunking over a car
Wikipedia: "He is considered by several NBA All-Stars to be the greatest player to never reach the NBA."
Jason Kidd:"Hook was by far the best player to come out of Oakland. There's no comparison to me, Gary Payton, Antonio Davis, Greg Foster or Brian Shaw."
Gary Payton:"He had major, major game. He was 5'9 and had major hops. He could do anything he wanted to do."
Brian Shaw: "He could handle the ball with the Marburys and Iversons. He had the competitiveness of a Gary Payton or a Michael Jordan."

Raymond Lewis
6'1" G from Los Angeles, CA
Made his legend in: LA streetball, summer pro leagues
Legendary stories: There are plenty. Reportedly scored 60 points in a scrimmage agains 76ers first round draft pick Doug Collins. Lit up future NBA DPOY Michael Cooper for 56 points through 3 quarters of a summer league game in 1983. Led the nation in scoring (39 ppg, 7 apg, 59% shooting) as a college freshman.
Seth Ferranti: "A man whose talent and skill with the basketball was so immense he could have been one of the greatest ever. Raymond Lewis was so good that he never needed a nickname. In Los Angeles if you said Raymond, they said Lewis. And if you said Lewis, they said Raymond...The playground legend from Watts, California who ruled the basketball world in Los Angeles in the early 70s and 80s is still to this day considered one of the greatest basketball players that ever lived. And, without exception, the best to ever come out of California."
Dean Prator: "I often hear people talking about the basketball players who they say was the best to never play in the NBA. But without question, I believe Lewis is the best never to play in the NBA."

Roger Brown
6'5" F-G from New York
Made his legend in: ABA
Accomplishments: 4 time ABA all-star, ABA finals MVP, Averaged 33 ppg and 10 rpg in the 1970 ABA finals against all-star Willie Wise, outscored Rick Barry 32-23 in the deciding game of the 1972 ABA finals
Slick Leonard: "Roger was a complete basketball player. One-on-one, no man could guard him, like no man can guard Michael Jordan today."
Billy Keller: "Having Roger Brown is great for a team's ego. To know that you're in a close game and all you have to do is get him the ball..."
Gene Littles: "Roger was the Larry Bird of the ABA."
Mel Daniels: ""He was so good one-on-one that I remember defenders actually screaming for help. He actually dislocated or broke eight guys' ankles (with a) crossover dribble move."

Len Bias
6'8" F from Maryland
Made his legend in: College Basketball, specifically the ACC
Accomplishments: ACC Male Athlete of the Year, Beat #1 ranked UNC in the 1986 NCAA Tournament, etc.
Lefty Driesell: "I think he's the greatest basketball player that ever played in the Atlantic Coast Conference."
Mike Krzyzewski: "This is my 24th year at Duke, and in that time there have been two opposing players who have really stood out: Michael Jordan and Len Bias. Len was an amazing athlete with great competitiveness. My feeling is that he would have been one of the top players in the NBA."
Jim Calhoun: "He was bigger, stronger, and quicker than anyone we had. He was one of those rare guys you looked at and said, `You know, he is going to be special.' "

__________________
A man said to the universe:
"Sir I exist!"
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation."

- Stephen Crane

DanielGibson4MVP

It's shame too, that these guys never made it.

Quite Frankly

*Nods in Agreement*

__________________

BadBaronRudigor

Not sure the ABA should count either; they merged with the NBA and NBA considers their stats part of its official record but I'd certainly take an ABA legend over a summer league or streetball legend. The "Hook" legend is typical, great game, poor size, may or may not have made it in the NBA as a 5'9 scorer but seems unlikely. Same for guys like 6'4 dunk legend "Helicopter" Knowlings or 6'2 Earl "the Goat" Manigault; top of the backboard hops will make you a playgroud legend but if you aren't at least 6'6 and built like an Unseld/Barkley, you won't play inside in the NBA.

One player that hasn't been mentioned is Bob Kurland. WAY before my time but he was considered equal or superior to George Mikan back in the day but had a job lined up making good money (NBA players often took summer jobs to make ends meet, lol) and chose never to turn pro, playing in several Olympics. Supposedly the first great shotblocking center.

__________________
If you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk

PauloCatarino

Nick Galis

Notable achievements

In 854 official games played, Galis scored a total of 25,995 points, an impressive 30.4 points per game.
In 168 games with the Greek national team, he averaged 30.46 points.
Galis was the leading scorer in every major European or World national event he participated from 1983 onwards. (1986 World Championship - Eurobaskets 1983, 1987, 1989, 1991).
His personal scoring record in one game is 62 points (1981, Aris-Ionikos). However in the same game, his future teammate Panagiotis Giannakis scored 73 points!
His career high in a European competition was 57 points against Venice during the 1981 Korac Cup.

Titles
Galis won numerous titles and awards during his career. The following are some of them:

Greek Championship: 1983, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
Greek Cup: 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1993
Greek championship MVP: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
Eurobasket: 1987
Eurobasket runner up: 1989
Eurobasket MVP: 1987

Panagiotis Giannakis

Titles (as player): 1 Eurobasket, 1 European Champions Cup, 1 Cup Winners Cup, 7 Greek Championships, 7 Greek Cups
He holds the record for national team caps with 351, which is also a record for any european player.
He has scored 9291 points in Greek competitions (3rd all-time) and 5282 with the national team (record holder).
His personal best is 72 points scored, in 1984 as a player of Ionikos (ironically against Aris, his future team).
He holds the records for most games in the Greek championship (493) and in Euroleague (163).
He is the only person to win the Eurobasket Championship both as player (1987) and as coach (2005).
He was selected 207th overall by the Boston Celtics in the 1982 NBA draft.

__________________
(...) we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender (...)

Sunsfan81

Here are some others

John Beckman "The Babe Ruth of basketball"
Joe Lapchick
Charles "Tarzan" Cooper
Hank Luisetti
Bob McDermott

magohaydz