PauloCatarino

From Bob Cousy's nba.com profile:

"Cousy was the heart and soul of a team of stars that featured Bill Russell, Tommy Heinsohn, K. C. Jones, Bill Sharman, and Satch Sanders"

"In 1960, after admiring his play for a decade, former New York Knicks Coach Joe Lapchick called Cousy the best player of all time. After Cousy retired, Celtics owner Walter Brown told a Boston newspaper that "the Celtics wouldn't be here without him. If he had played in New York, he would have been as big as Babe Ruth. I think he is anyway."

""What Russell was on defense, that's what Cousy was on offense -- a magician. Once that ball reached his hands, the rest of us just took off, never bothering to look back.
-- Former Celtic great Tommy Heinsohn"

"The rambunctious rookie almost single-handedly drew fans into the Garden, although Auerbach was still unimpressed with Cousy's flair."

"Until he retired in 1963, Cousy was the one player who brought it all together for Boston with his brilliant playmaking and court savvy. "

"At age 35, Cousy retired as a player. Even his final moments on the court were spent basking in Celtics glory. His last regular-season game became known as "the Boston Tear Party." Cousy was rendered speechless by emotion during a 20-minute farewell statement that was supposed to last only seven minutes. Then a voice cried out from the sold-out Boston Garden, "We love ya, Cooz." Those words from Joe Dillon, a city water worker and certifiable Celtics nut, broke the tension and sent the crowd into a frenzy. President John Kennedy wired to Cousy: "The game bears an indelible stamp of your rare skills and competitive daring."

Also to note, a gamous Hondo quote: "I made a living off of Bob Cousy!"

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kirov

you didn't understand my post (as usual). I said they were both the greatest, just in different ways-to me scottie pippen's DEFENSE is the GOAT and he didn't mind being a second violin, that's why they matched perfectly.

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BadBaronRudigor

So then you are saying that when Cousy retires replaced by KC Jones (basically a quicker Rajon Rondo with no shot) that the Celtics and Havlicek would suffer a significant decline? Boston upped it's win total to 59 and won the NBA title again the next year (and 4 of the next 5 NBA titles) and Havlicek upped his scoring from 14 ppg to 20 ppg. Talk is cheap.

Compare to when Russell retired. The two years before he retired, the Celtics won two more NBA titles. Russell retires, all the other starters return (Sam Jones also retired which is significant but he had slipped to a 6th man role), the Celtics win 34 games finishing 6th in their division and missing the playoffs. THAT's the heart of the team.

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Najee

Scottie Pippen was a great trapping and passing lane defender, but he could be posted up and taken to school. Dominique Wilkins consistently lit Pippen up on the box, and Jamal Mashburn once ran up 52 on Pippen basically taking him down low.

Pippen also did have some objection to being the second fiddle to Michael Jordan, until Jordan retired the first time. Pippen couldn't quite handle the overwhelming aspects of being the No. 1 man on a team so became more comfortable being the No. 2 man getting all the reputation of a pseudo-No. 1 man.

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lessthanjake

I just made the argument that MJ is the best player ever. His case is the fact that he was the best offensive player, best perimeter defender, and best clutch player of his era (or maybe of all time). No one else can say that, and really at its most basic level basketball is about offense, defending, and clutch play.

However, I can also argue that Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the best player ever. His case is based on the fact that he had greater longevity than any player while having maybe the most dominant peak of all time, and being a proven winner.

An easy way to illustrate his longevity is to point out that Kareem was All-NBA first team in the 1986 season when he was 38 years old. And it wasnt some lifetime achievement award. He was 6th in the league in PER and 4th in Win Shares. When he was 38! He was top 10 in MVP voting for 17 straight years (finishing out of the top 5 only two of those 17 years). No one else has been that good for that long.

However, at the same time, he had maybe the most dominant peak of all time. He lead the league in PER in 9 of his first 12 years. He was a close second the other 3 years. Some of the years no one was even close to him. For instance, In 1972 Kareem had a PER of 29.9. Bob Lanier was second with 23.1. Now PER is certainly not everything; I dont consider it to be a perfect statistic by any means because it doesnt translate well across eras. However, it does illustrate who the best player in the league is pretty well and no one was even close to Kareem in those 12 years. Only Wilt and MJ were similar in their era's dominance.

Kareem also won 6 titles. Only MJ and Russell have as many out of legitimate GOAT candidates.

So basically, while MJ may have the peak and winning of Kareem, he didnt have the longevity. Wilt may have the peak too but not the longevity or winning. Russell won even more than Kareem, but first off it was in an era with far fewer teams (thus a greater statistical chance of winning the title in any given year), but secondly he wasnt even close in peak or longevity. Its pretty safe to say that Kareem had the greatest career ever if you measure it in total wins created above and beyond what a normal player in his place wouldve done.

The only knock on him is that he won a few of his titles while not being the best player on his team. This is certainly true of the 1987 and 1988 Laker titles. He was only a borderline-all-star level player those years. In 1985, it is debateable whether Kareem or Magic was better. Magic finished SLIGHTLY higher in MVP voting, PER, and Win Shares; BUT Kareem won the Finals MVP award and was the team's leading scorer. Id take Kareem that year over Magic by a hair. In 1982, Magic had more Win Shares, finished higher in MVP voting, and won the Finals MVP, while Kareem had the better PER. However, its undeniable that in 1982, the Lakers played through Kareem not Magic. He was the more important player. And while Magic won the Finals MVP in 1980 cause of his amazing game 6 performance, Kareem was the MVP of the league and played incredibly in the finals before getting hurt. He was indisputedly the best player on the team. And obviously in 1971, he was the best player on the Bucks. I'd say he was the most important player on the team for 4 championship teams, and pretty important for 2 others. Of course, MJ was the most important player for 6 and Russell for 11. However, only Tim Duncan also has 4 by my count. Shaq = 3 (Wade was far more important on that Heat team). Bird = 3. Magic = 2 (although if I switched around my thoughts on 1985 he would have three and so would Kareem). Hakeem = 2. Cowens = 2. Basically, while Kareem might not be the greatest winner in the history of the game, he is certainly one of the top 5 (I would say the top 5 winners would be: Russell, MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird).

PauloCatarino

Yes, it is.
You stated that Boc Cusy was overrated, and even cited Red Auerbach.
A quick look on nba.com provided those quotes of basketball people who were there to see Cooz play saying otherwise. So, yeah, talk is cheap.
Oh, and about your example, should we conclude that Michael Jordan was also overrated because, after his first retirement, and being replaced by a guy named Pete Myers, the Bulls not only didn't implode but managed to stay at the same winning clip? (2 less wins, IIRC)?

Russell was a great player, and obviously the Celtics suffered when he retired. But you forgot to mention how they went from 1969-1970...
1968-1969 (Russell's last year) = 48-34;
1969-1970: 34-48;
1970-1971: 44-38 (enter Dave Cowens);
1971-1972: 56-26;
1972-1973: 68-14;
1973-1974: 56-26 and NBA CHampions;

But het, i'm not trying to diss Bill Russell. I'm just trying to front your "overrated" startement regarding Bob Cousy.

__________________
(...) we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender (...)

sasaint

Oscar Robertson was the GOAT.

kirov

And exactly what were you trying to prove in your first paragraph? if you wanna play like that, I can find a weakness in every player that is considered a great defender. omg, jamal ONCE ran up 52...**** happens

He did have objection, he did have second thoughts but he didn't go to some other team where he could have been nr.1 (Kobe-Shaq is the first association that pops into my mind).

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BadBaronRudigor

Russell won 11 championships in 13 years, 4 in 5 years post-Cousy. Cousy won zero championships without Russell. Despite playing with HOF C and SG, his team was basically mediocre though he put up impressive numbers. He was a poor defender, an inefficient shooter who shot a lot, but a great passer . . . he wasn't the kind of player you can build a winner around, he was a guy who rode the Russell train; sort of like KC Jones. i'm not saying he wasn't a good player, he was one of history's great playmakers. I am saying people who say that playing with the likes of Cousy, Sharman, and Tommy Heinsohn made it easy for Russell haven't looked closely at those players. They weren't that good a team without Russell (even with HOF center Ed McCauley in Russell's place). I am much more impressed with the trio of Sam Jones, Havlicek, and Bailey Howell that replaced the first three but two of those three weren't enough to hold the Celtics together without Russell. Russell is one of the 3 (maybe 4) legit GOAT candidates and that's what the arguement focused on, not trying to diss Cousy particularly, just that it wasn't the people around Russell, it was Russell making the people around him look like champions.

Oh, and many teams rebuild in a 3-5 year window. Continuing without missing a beat is a different ballgame.

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PauloCatarino