BadBaronRudigor

Paulo, I wouldn't pick Lucas over Isiah any more than kflo would pick Blackman over DJ; but . . . Lucas is capable of running the point on a team loaded with Dennis Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Alex English, and Robert Parish sufficiently well to overcome an Isiah led team that is weaker at C, SF, SG, and 6th man. Lucas isn't in Isiah's class, but he's good enough to fit in well on that squad.

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PauloCatarino

Fair enough...

Selecting the starting 5 for both squads and the rotation, who do you think is the better roster?

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kflo

point is that lucas doesn't complement that team, nor does dj complement lucas. neither was an efficient scorer, and neither had a reliable shot to spread the floor. isiah / blackman was much more of a well rounded offensive duo. the problem, again, with the '76 team is that they don't spread the floor well offensively, and they're not dynamic creatively. the '81 team is simply much more well rounded offensively, and much deeper offensively as well. i'd feel much more comfortable with the '76 team if you had dj at the point and a well rounded, efficient scoring sg with range, but that isn't the case. instead, the team offensively is just dantley (or english) and somewhat of a mismatch with parish, although the extent to which he can really dominate is a bit sketchy, as he really wasn't a bulk scorer. and blackman / dj was far closer talent wise than isiah / lucas. and there are teams where blackman's scoring would be a bigger asset than dj's all-around game, whereas lucas in no circumstances comes very close to measuring up to isiah.

PauloCatarino

Well, in all honesty i'd say that the only thing keeping the 76's somewhat close to the 81's is Robert Parish. The 81's have noone the likes of him. But The Chief is not so great as to make a major difference between both rosters...

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BadBaronRudigor

G Isaiah Thomas
G Rolando Blackman
F Mark Aguirre
F Tom Chambers
C Larry Nance
-------------------------------------
G Danny Ainge
G Kelly Tripucka
F Eddie Johnson
F Orlando Woolridge
F Buck Williams
F Steve Johnson
C Danny Schayes

(6) 1976
G John Lucas
F Alex English
F Adrian Dantley
F Mitch Kupchak
C Robert Parish
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G Dennis Johnson
G Sonny Parker
G Johnny Davis
G Quinn Buckner
F Terry Furlow
F Scott May
C Lonnie Shelton

Analysis:
Big man scoring -- Parish/May/Kupchak v. Williams/Chambers/Nance. I used groupings of threes here because Kupchak would be the most likely 6th man for the 76ers and Nance for the 81s despite the fact that they are better than May/Chambers respectively. However, May moves the ball well and has a nice outside shot to allow Dantley to work inside. Parish will be the best player in this grouping and the only true postup threat, but Buck Williams will keep him from getting too much. Chambers and Nance are both great open court players; if this turns into a running game the edge would change over to the 81 team but in playoff basketball, halfcourt play tends to be emphasized. Edge 76ers.

Wing and guard scoring. Lucas/DJohnson/Dantley/English v. Thomas/Blackman/Aguirre/E.Johnson. The 81ers have the volume scoring in Thomas and Aguirre, the 76ers with Dantley and 6th man Alex Engish who was very comfortable playing the 2/3/4 positions. Blackman outscored Johnson but both sides have enough scoring to get 150 points per game so you have to look at efficiency and playing style. Thomas and Lucas are similar in efficiency and shooting range, Thomas was stronger driving to the hoop. Neither Blackman nor DJ had great shooting range either but Blackman was the more efficient scorer with the more consistent shot. Aquirre and Dantley are the most efficient and highest volume scorers on their respective teams and while Aguirre was outstanding, Dantley was probably arguably the most efficient great scorer that didn't play center. English is the equivalent of Aguirre in efficiency but with a more versatile game and would get starter minutes as 6th man. Eddie Johnson gives the 81s a true long range threat to open things up.

The question to my mind is how much Isiah would be willing to play pass first point and let the more efficient Aquirre and Blackman (and inside guys) be the primary scorers. His history in Detroit with both Dantley and Aquirre says to me that he needs to be the first option, if that is the case, the fact that he is both a volume shooter and the least efficient scorer on his team would actually be a detriment for the team. Lucas was always a pass first player. Edge 81 if Isiah's ego gets sublimated to his team; 76ers if it doesn't and you have Isiah v. Dantley as the leading scorers.

Passing. Isiah is the best playmaker on the floor. Lucas was very good though and Dennis Johnson gives the 81ers a strong second point. All the main scorers were also very good passers; the only average passers in the main rotation were Kupchak and Nance. Both Dantley and Aquirre slow down the passing game with their styles, Aguirre a little less so. No clear edge.

Rebounding -- Buck Williams and Parish are both very good rebounders, Chambers has an edge on May, Kupchak and Nance are even. Outside the rebounding edge goes to the 76ers whose other players were more active on the boards, edge 81.

Defense -- Williams is the best man defender inside, Parish the best help defender, Nance is an excellent help defender too, Kupchak was solid before his injury, May a bit better than Chambers. Outside, DJ is the only true stopper, Blackman and Isiah were both good, Lucas and English a bit above average, Aquirre bad and Dantley worse. For that matter Eddie Johnson was pretty weak too. No clear edge.

Bench -- For the 76ers, 6th man Alex English is in the HOF for a reason. He was a great scorer, efficient and able to take players both inside and out while playing solid defense. Mitch Kupchak before his injury was one of the great energy guys with good offensive skills and the size to play both 4 and 5 but was cut down early (he and Lucas would be significantly downgraded if we weren't looking at best years only). Buckner gives a defensive stopper at guard, Davis another playmaker, Shelton is another big body. For the 81ers, Larry Nance is also a 3 position player who was a great help defender and super efficient finisher. Eddie Johnson, Kelly Tripuka, and Danny Ainge offer outside shooting, Schayes and Steve Johnson some more fouls. Edge 76ers.

Intangibles -- Parish and DJ were great winners for the 76ers, Isiah for the 81 team. The 76 team has better defined roles and balance, the 81 team more stars and more guys that can step up and take over a game. John Lucas was a good player before the coke but can you count on a guy like that in the clutch? Edge 81

Overall -- I give the overall edge to the 76 team because I feel that it will play more like a team with Dantley being the go to guy offensively and plenty of secondary scoring (Parish, DJ, English). I think the 81 team is more talented and if they can merge their egos and focus the offense around the Aquirre/Blackman/Chambers combination, they would be my choice, I just don't see Isiah giving up the lead man role nor do I see that team being strong enough defensively to allow him to be the primary scorer and beat a team with as many strengths as the 76 team. Parish inside, DJ outside is too good defensively and Dantley leading the offense is too much. Edge 76.

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kflo

not sure why you're harping on isiah's ability as a team-first player. he was never a bulk shooter. he was a playmaker first, always. at his best, he was fairly efficient (55% ts% in '86), and was easily the most creative player on the court. why is isiah's selflessness an issue, and not dantley's hold on to the ball and stifle movement not an issue? dantley, year-in and year-out would put up gaudy offensive numbers, with efficiency among the best in history, and always play on one of the least efficient offensive teams in the league. while isiah led the '84 pistons to the #1 offense in the league.

on big man scoring, i don't see how parish/may/kupchak has a scoring edge on buck/nance/chambers. you can throw woolridge in there too for '81.

and again, i don't see how you can go with the playing like a team angle and then point to dantley as your centerpiece.

bench, the '81 team is the deeper team by alot, and i don't think english offsets that.

lastly, i don't see how you addressed the lack of spacing and creativity and outside shooting on the '76 team.

and rolando blackman was an outside shooter. that was his game (as well as being a scorer).

and scott may was a pretty marginal player. his "prime" came playing 13-18 mpg.

BadBaronRudigor

The May/Kupchak/Shelton position is clearly the weakest on the 76 team; the center position on the 81 team is similarly weak (better players, playing much more out of position . . . though English could play the 4 also as he did in Denver next to Issel and Vandeweghe). Scott May had only a bit less than two healthy years in the league, his first two. In them he averaged about 33 minutes a game and showed himself as a smart 4 with good defense and a midrange jump shot who could be overpowered by big fours . . . a poor man's Horace Grant in the making maybe . . . he was then injured and never played well again. That was his prime; for these teams he is clearly the most marginal starter (if you start him over Kupchak and Shelton which with modern rules and late 70s/early 80s players I probably would). Still, he is the 5th option and can hit an open jump shot, move the ball, and play defense. For more energy, size, and rebounding Kupchak would get as many minutes as May with Shelton coming in for the physical banging as the 4th big.

Rolando Blackman was a midrange shooter. He was a smart, consistent player with good size and strength but only average quickness who knew enough not to shoot outside his sweet zone very often. He was not a long range shooter and, unlike a lot of players, didn't try to force it thus his excellent FG%.

The 76 team would use Dantley in the only way a good team can use him, as the primary scoring option. I mentioned his slowing the ball down with his post style and his miserable defense but he was a guy who could get you 25-30 points a game with a TSP of well over .600 for his career. The rest of the team would have to be built around him but all of DJ, Lucas, May and even Parish were decent spot up midrange shooters who could play off Dantley's post game and DJ and Parish were both capable of consistent 15-20 points a game while May and Lucas were good for 12-15. Add that to HOF Alex English's versatile game off the bench for any of the starting 5 other than Parish (going small if coming in for May, DJ moving to the point if for Lucas) and good role players in Kupchak, Shelton, Buckner and Johnny Davis and you have a team that would compete for the championship in a normal NBA assuming good health and Lucas not yet being into the cocaine. I see English getting 30+ mpg as 5th man with Lucas, May, and Kupchak being in the 25-30 range and Shelton, Davis and Buckner in the 10-20s (the other two are garbage time).

I loved the Bad Boy Pistons being one of the few people not from Detroit to ever root for Bill Laimbeer, but Isiah had a Jordan sized ego and I saw him freeze out Dantley and Aquirre (Dantley outscored him in 87, 88, and 89 but on 3,4, and 3.5 less shots a game). He will distribute the ball around but only in his offense, he won't let Aquirre post up and hold the ball like I believe Lucas would with Dantley (Aguirre and Dantley are very similar players). Similarly I see ego issues if Chambers is relegated to the bench behind Buck Williams and Larry Nance even though I think both are much better players. I just can't see the 81 players playing or staying together as a team, there are too many stress points despite their greater talent; that is why I think the less talented 76ers would win.

I will say that having Buck Williams (which I hadn't noticed for some reason when I first looked at the teams) is a HUGE difference maker and might be enough to carry the 81 team; he was a great team player but a 4, not a center.

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Yao Mania

Tough one... I actually like the 76 bench better, but 81's got more scoring power. And since I was born in 81, I gotta go with that year's draft

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PauloCatarino

You do?
DJ and a bunch of nobodies?

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(...) we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender (...)