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RollWithEm · 04-15-2008, 02:29 PM

The vaunted 1984 team was mentioned in another thread, so I’ll post their match-up now. I will include the statistically best team as well as my own team (based on my opinion). Here’s the 1/8 match-up from the Sam Bowie region:

(1) 1984
G John Stockton
G Alvin Robertson
G Michael Jordan
F Charles Barkley
C Hakeem Olajuwon
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G Jay Humphries
G Vern Fleming
F Jerome Kersey
F Otis Thorpe
F Tony Campbell
C Kevin Willis
C Sam Perkins

This team actually has better depth than I had initially thought behind the big 4. I wouldn’t change much, actually. The only thing I would change would be to add Sam Bowie in place of Tony Campbell since the bracket is named after him and all. I would leave the starters unchanged. My 10-man rotation would include Fleming, Humphries, Kersey, Willis, and Perkins with Kersey as the probable 6th man. This team has very little in the way of flaws.

VS

(8) 2002
G Mike Dunleavy
G Caron Butler
F Carlos Boozer
F Amare Stoudamire
C Yao Ming
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G Juan Dixon
G Flip Murray
F Tayshaun Prince
F Drew Gooden
F Nene
F Chris Wilcox
F Darius Songaila

This team obviously has an extreme lack of ball handlers and passers. That would be OK if it wasn’t for the fact that Stockton, Robertson, and Jordan are all top ten in history in total steals and top 6 in history in steals per game. In other words, this is the worst match-up the 2002 team could possibly imagine. I’ll try to do my best in picking my team to “correct” this problem.

PG Juan Carlos Navarro
SG Caron Butler
SF Tayshaun Prince
PF Carlos Boozer
C Amare Stoudamire
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G Mike Dunleavy
G Juan Dixon
F Chris Wilcox
F Jared Jeffries
F Nene
C Yao Ming
C Luis Scola

I guess this is my best effort to add ball-handling skills to this team. At least Navarro and Jeffries can get the ball up the floor (maybe) well enough to just get the ball in the hands of their post weapons. I don’t know what to do with this team. Good luck to them. What do you think will happen?

Diophantos · 04-15-2008, 02:41 PM

Umm...yeah. This would be fun to watch, in the same way that a train wreck is fun to watch. (What, you don't think train wrecks are fun to watch?)

As you say, the 02 team has not a single legitimate ball-handler on the squad. You try and remedy this a little with Navarro and Jefferies but Navarro is a shooter with decent enough ball-handling skills to play pick-and-rolls, not a pure point who can bring the ball up against pressure. Jefferies is a decent ball-handler for a guy his size I guess, but not someone you want bringing the ball up against pressure.

And talk about pressure--Stockton, Robertson, Jordan. Like we said, the 02 team won't even be able to set up their offense. Amare might be able to get buckets on Barkley but it won't be too easy with Hakeem roaming the paint. Boozer will be matched up with a smaller man (Robertson or MJ I guess) but it'll be tough to take advantage of that because his guards will never be able to get him the ball. Plus 84 can always throw Kersey or Willis on him.

On the other end, the 84 team will be running for layups and dunks off of a suffocating defense that will force a ridiculous amount of turnovers on 02. In the halfcourt, I think MJ and Stockton play it cool and feed Barkley, for whom no one on the 02 team has a snowball's chance in hell of being able to guard. (Boozer? Too slow. Amare? Poor defender...I think the inevitable Stockton/Barkley pick and roll absolutely loses him. Wilcox? Scola?) MJ and Stockton then play off the double teams.

What's that you say? They also have Hakeem? Ballgame.

Najee · 04-15-2008, 07:18 PM

Never has one draft bust loomed large in the outcome of a tournament game the way Jay Williams' shadow does.

As incredible as it may sound, if Williams became the can't-miss product and was enjoying the career most scouts envisioned, the Class of '02 team actually could hang with the vaunted Class of '84. Look at the players on that team:

* Yao Ming, currently the best center in the NBA and arguably one of its 10 best players.

* Amare Stoudemire and Carlos Boozer, two of the top power forwards in the game and (in some circles) borderline MVP candidates.

* Caron Butler, a tough-as-nails swingman who is good for 20 points, 6 rebounds and 4 assists per game.

* Tayshaun Prince, the wiry shutdown artist who may be the best wing defender in the NBA ( I mean, this guy stymied Kobe Bryant in the 2004 NBA Finals and in 2003 slowwed down a rampaging Tracy McGrady).

* Mike Dunleavy Jr., who after some initial struggles has developed into a productive offensive utilityman.

Add in guys like Flip Murray, Drew Gooden and John Salmons and this is actually a good-looking group ... until you look at the fact it has absolutely no point guard. Dan Dickau *GULP!* actually may have to be picked out of necessity.

And going up against the Class of '84? Damn you, Jay Williams! For that matter, damn you, Frank Williams! The prediction in a moment.

RollWithEm · 04-18-2008, 05:56 AM

Even though I am just now getting the chance to respond to this thread, I think my feelings on the match-up were pretty clear in my initial post. The 2002 team has too big of a disadvantage in the backcourt to compete in this game. Stockton/Robertson/Jordan is the worst murderer’s row of guards this team could imagine. Beyond that, I don’t see another area of the game the 2002 squad has a real advantage in, either.

What is the 2002 squad’s biggest strength? That would have to be frontcourt size, depth, and skill. Although the 1984 team doesn’t have quite as much size, they absolutely have more skill and might even have more depth. Wouldn’t this game be enjoyable just to see MJ and Barkley laughing as they watch Hakeem twist Yao up like a pretzel in the low block and then completely shut him down at the other end as well? After the big name guys, the 1984 trio of Thorpe/Willis/Perkins is on par with if not better than the 2002 group of Boozer/Nene/Wilcox/Scola.

Defensively the 1984 team is not only better than the 2002 team, but also probably the best team in the whole tournament. I just don’t see how the 2002 team could break 80 in this game. This is just as a big a mismatch as you would expect a 1/8 game to be.

BadBaronRudigor · 04-18-2008, 01:15 PM

Yao should definitely start ahead of either Boozer or Amare. Nor would Hakeem own him, it would be a tough matchup for them both. That said, it's still a blowout by 84.

Najee · 04-18-2008, 05:30 PM

CLASS OF 1984:

PG: John Stockton
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Charles Barkley
PF: Otis Thorpe
C: Hakeem Olajuwon

BENCH: Michael Cage, Vern Fleming, Jay Humphries, Jerome Kersey, Sam Perkins, Alvin Robertson and Kevin Willis.

CLASS OF 2002:

PG: Dan Dickau
SG: Caron Butler
SF: Tayshaun Prince
PF: Amare Stoudemire
C: Yao Ming

BENCH: Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunlveavy Jr., Juan Dixon, Nenad Krstic, Flip Murray, John Salmons and Chris Wilcox.

I agree, Bad Baron. The Class of '02's downfall is having no point guard, which is why this would be a blowout. It's not because guys like Ming, Stoudemire and Boozer are stiffs by any means -- the 2002 simply doesn't have anyone who can break the '84 team's defensive pressure and get the ball in the '02 team's hands. Hence, the selection of Dickau, a below-average point who would be best served as a reserve.

This is how the game will go down. Butler will get a dunk early in the game, and to show the Class of '84 his team is here he starts jawing at Jordan. After a separation:

* Jordan puts Butler on a poster with a tomahawk dunk, and then MJ throws the ball at him;

* Three minutes later, Jordan dunks on Frodo Beggins (Dickau) on the break, prompting Butler to say, "Why don't you dunk on someone your own size?"

* Five minutes later, Jordan dunks on Yao on an isolation play. After the play, Jordan goes up to Butler (who is now sitting on the bench) and says, "Was he big enough for you?"

Like I said, if the Class of '02 had a quality point guard they actually could give the '84 team a run. Dunleavy is a good enough point forward and the most of the other guys can play. Yao, Stoudemire and Boozer (the sixth man) are potent frontline scorers.

But they are going up against JORDAN ... and BARKLEY ... and HAKEEM ... and STOCKTON ... without a point guard. Just too much.

FINAL SCORE: Class of 1984 122, Class of 2002 94.

RollWithEm · 04-21-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBaronRudigor

Yao should definitely start ahead of either Boozer or Amare. Nor would Hakeem own him, it would be a tough matchup for them both. That said, it's still a blowout by 84.

Amare is the best player of the 3, so he has to start. The choice between Boozer and Yao pretty much comes down to how you match-up with the other team. If the other squad is starting Barkley, Thorpe, and Hakeem, you might want to start all three guys. If the other team has a smaller, more agile front line, you might want to go small with Boozer/Amare and let Yao match-up with the other team’s bench pivot men.

If you don’t think Hakeem would own Yao, you should probably go back and watch some footage of Hakeem vs. Shaq/D Rob/Ewing or any other big man in his era. He offensively dominated all of those players who were all quicker of foot than Yao. Yao would not have a chance to stop him or even slow him down. In fact Hakeem would get Yao in foul trouble so quick, the Boozer/Amare front line would be on display whether the team wanted it that way or not. Conversely, I don’t see Yao giving Hakeem much trouble on the other end either. He might get a few buckets off long jumpers, but his deliberate post moves would play right into The Dream’s hands. Yao simply would not have a change in that match-up.

BadBaronRudigor · 04-21-2008, 07:12 PM

Yes, do go back and watch stats of Hakeem v. Shaq, DRob, and Ewing . . . and watch more than the one playoff series. What you will find is that Hakeem consistently got beat by Shaq and David Robinson in the regular season (he had a one game advantage on Ewing). The difference is that Robinson didn't step up in big series and Hakeem did. Robinson was the better regular season player, Hakeem beat him when it counted. Shaq lost to Hakeem because Nick Anderson choked, despite Shaq outplaying Hakeem (in Hakeem's peak but before Shaq's).

None of the three got in consistent foul trouble v. Hakeem . . . the guy who created foul trouble for his opponents was Shaq, not Hakeem. I loved Hakeem but he has gotten overrated since he retired like few other players.

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