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RollWithEm · 04-23-2008, 11:25 AM

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We now arrive at my favorite match-up of the first round. I love games that feature a contrast of styles. These are the types of games where one team’s best player(s) can enforce their will on the other squad. The talent is pretty evenly distributed between the teams just like you would expect in a 4/5 game. As per usual, I’ll post the stat-based teams as well as the teams based on my own opinions. So here’s the 4/5 Match-up in the LaRue Martin region:

(4) 1992
G Latrell Sprewell
G Jim Jackson
F Tom Gugliotta
C Alonzo Mourning
C Shaquille O’Neal
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G Doug Christie
F LaPhonso Ellis
F PJ Brown
F Christian Laettner
F Clarence Weatherspoon
F Tracy Murray
C Oliver Miller

So you thought the 2002 team was frontcourt heavy? This team is loaded up front, but they need more ball-handling and less Oliver Miller. Let’s see what I can do to fix this problem.

PG Anthony Peeler
SG Latrell Sprewell
SF Robert Horry
PF Alonzo Mourning
C Shaquille O’Neal
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G Doug Christie
G Jim Jackson
F Tom Gugliotta
F LaPhonso Ellis
F Tracy Murray
F PJ Brown
C Christian Laettner

I added Horry over Miller because this team already had enough total poundage and because this is exactly the type of playoff atmosphere Horry has made a career out of mastering. I added Peeler over Weatherspoon to get the ball up the floor, to defend the opponent’s best perimeter player, and to make solid post feeds. This team still has extreme depth in the frontcourt offensively and defensively. They now have two outstanding perimeter defenders (Peeler, Christie), a great offensive 6th man (Googs), good shooting (Horry, Ellis, Murray), and two solid perimeter scorers (Sprewell, Jackson). There should never be a time when neither Shaq nor Zo is on the floor, so the lane will always be clogged up for opposing cutters and penetrators. This is a pretty good team.

VS

(5) 1979
G Magic Johnson
G Sidney Moncrief
F Jim Paxson
F Calvin Natt
C Bill Laimbeer
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G Johnny Moore
G Vinnie Johnson
G Sly Williams
F Cliff Robinson
F Edgar Jones
F Reggie King
C Bill Cartwright

This is certainly an interesting team. I would tweak it slightly. My team would look like this:

PG Magic Johnson
SG Sidney Moncrief
SF Jim Paxson
PF Calvin Natt
C Bill Laimbeer
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G Johnny Moore
G Vinnie Johnson
G Geoff Huston
F Cliff Robinson
F Dave Greenwood
F Phil Hubbard
C Bill Cartwright

I added Greenwood and Hubbard for size and rebounding. I went with Huston because this team needed another perimeter scorer to go with Paxson and Vinnie. This team has very little depth, but the starters are pretty solid. The Microwave would be my 6th man. Who do you think would win?

BadBaronRudigor · 04-23-2008, 02:21 PM

The lack of a PG almost works to the 92's advantage in that no small guard could handle either Magic or Moncrief. Shaq will (no surprise) dominate but Zo will have a tough time offensively and the team flow will clog up badly. Neither Shaq nor Zo has much of a midrange to long range game or is comfortable in the high post, none of the wing guard on the 92 team can bring up the ball against the kind of pressure Moncrief was famous for applying, Jim Jackson is the team's best ballhandler and they probably need a 3 guard offense to counter the 2 centers inside and give ballhandling. Peeler shouldn't be starting, he's the 4th best ballhandler, 3rd best defender, his outside shot wasn't that impressive. It's a team with GREAT talent but not a great team.

The 79 team has Magic who dominates any of the 92 guards. For that matter Moncrief dominates any of them that Magic doesn't. Laimbeer and Natt, tough and nasty as they were, can't handle Shaq and Zo inside but they can zone up and double since the 92 team is clogged up and unable to create much dribble penetration. Paxson and Laimbeer balance Magic and Moncrief's relatively limited shooting ranges. I think Magic is more successful imposing his type of game than Shaq though Shaq will have the best numbers (assuming his guards don't turn ballhog/gunner which some were known to do). 79 should win surprisingly . . . oh and Johnny Moore, Cliff Robinson (might be better than Natt), and Bill Cartwright were pretty solid players plus the microwave for instant offense.

RollWithEm · 04-23-2008, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBaronRudigor

Neither Shaq nor Zo has much of a midrange to long range game or is comfortable in the high post,

This is very true, but I think it's offset slightly by the bench. Horry, Laettner, Brown, and Googs were all extremely comfortable in the high post and all had pretty decent midrange games.

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none of the wing guard on the 92 team can bring up the ball against the kind of pressure Moncrief was famous for applying, Jim Jackson is the team's best ballhandler and they probably need a 3 guard offense to counter the 2 centers inside and give ballhandling.

I think any of their wing players could bring the ball up against Magic or Paxson will little trouble because neither excelled in on-the-ball pressure. Whoever Moncrief was guarding would have to avoid the ball like the plague in the backcourt. Also, I think Horry’s unique skills would alleviate the need for a 3-guard offense.

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Peeler shouldn't be starting, he's the 4th best ballhandler, 3rd best defender, his outside shot wasn't that impressive.

You’re probably right. I don’t think you can really go with Spree and Jax because you lose too much defensively. Conversely, you can’t start Peeler and Christie because you lose too much offensively. Either Christie or Peeler must start at the point, and either Jim or Latrell must start at the 2, IMO. I wouldn’t question any combination, there-in. I favored Spree because Jackson became adept at coming off the bench in his career. I favored Peeler, because I think he has a better chance of guarding Moncrief successfully than does Christie.

Quote:

It's a team with GREAT talent but not a great team.

Again, I agree with you. I do think they are a good team, though.

I think Horry guards Magic, Spree/Jax guards Paxson, and Peeler/Christie guards Moncrief. Then, Zo and Shaq switch everything down low so one of them is always guarding the rim. That would be a pretty tough team to score on, IMO. This will be a close match-up. I’m still trying to figure out who I think will win.

BadBaronRudigor · 04-24-2008, 05:02 AM

Back to the guards, I think Jackson was the only one of the bunch who played any PG, he had the best handles and they tried him there a bit when Kidd was out. As for defense, Sprewell was a pretty good defender when he wasn't sulking, choking his coach, or complaining about not being able to feed his family on 7 million a year. Christie was a heck of a lot better defender than Peeler too; if there were more guards, I'd start those three. With so little bench you might be right about starting Horry but while he has great shooting range, he hasn't got anything close to guard like handles.

Najee · 04-24-2008, 06:27 PM

OK, let's set the rosters:

CLASS OF 1992:

PG: Jimmy Jackson
SG: Latrell Sprewell
SF: Tom Gugliotta
PF: Christian Laettner
C: Shaquille O'Neal

BENCH: P.J. Brown, Doug Christie, Robert Horry, Alonzo Mourning, Malik Sealy, Clarence Weatherspoon and Walt Williams.

The 1992 team has a dilemma: Shaq and 'Zo are the team's two best players but both are centers. Mourning proved he was not comfortable playing power forward when as a junior at Georgetown he was forced to play that spot alongside Dikembe Mutombo.

Personally, Laettner is the best choice to start at power forward. He has more of a finesee-oriented, high-post game to complement Shaq's power style. Though it's somewhat fashionable on this board to slam Laettner, people forget he averaged 16.6 points and 7.8 rebounds per game in his first six seasons before his Achilles' injury. Laettner blended well on the court with Dikembe Mutombo, another low-post-exclusive center, while in Atlanta.

The team has no pure point guard, but Jackson was a solid ball-handler as well as Christie. Williams was an adequate ball-handler who manned the point guard position in college. And since there is no moratorium on the deceased, I added the late Malik Sealy (though I would understand if someone objected).

CLASS OF 1979:

PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF: Calvin Natt
PF: David Greenwood
C: Bill Laimbeer

BENCH: Bill Cartwright, James Donaldson, Mark Eaton, Vinnie Johnson, Johnny Moore, Jim Paxson and Cliff Robinson.

Since this team doesn't have a classic small forward (Robinson was more of combination forward, and a notoriously selfish player at that), I felt Natt is a better option there. Not to mention this game will be played almost exclusively in the lane. I added a pair of massive big men in the 7-foot-3, 275-pound Eaton (four-time league leader in blocks per game) and the 7-2, 275-pound Donaldson (decent scorer, solid rebounder) along with Laimbeer and Cartwright to bounce with Shaq and 'Zo in the paint.

My prediction in a moment.

Najee · 04-26-2008, 08:50 AM

It's a shame that either a Shaquille O'Neal-led or a Magic Johnson-led team will be knocked out of the first round, but that's the reality here. This is definitely going to a "meet me in the lane"-type affair -- a lot of post-ups, hard fouls and some serious chest-bumping. The '92 team has the massive and physical Shaq and one of the most intense interior players in 'Zo; the '79 group has no shrinking violets with Laimbeer, Cartwright, Natt, Eaton and Donaldson.

The Class of '92's biggest problem is not ball-handling, but play-calling. Jackson had a good handle for a shooting guard, but he had more of a scorer's mentality (and at a fairly low efficiency at that). The same holds true with Williams, who was worse in both categories. Sprewell was a volume scorer with a decent handle who was more effective in transition. Moreover, Jackson, Williams and Christie were decent to slightly above average outside shooters, but not quite good enough to keep the '79 group from packing it in.

Moncrief may not be exclusively an on-the-ball-pressure defender in this game. I feel he also will help double down on Shaq and 'Zo and occasionally play the passing lanes with Magic. Shaq will get his (26 points, 11 rebounds), but he's going to be separated at least once from Laimbeer before a fight breaks out and he's going to be irritated by Cartwright's flying elbows ('Zo likely will need to separated from Cartwright). There will be a lot of bumping in the lane with Donaldson and Eaton as well.

The Class of '92 actually may have to run on the break more to have a chance of winning. Jackson, Christie, Sprewell, Williams and Gugliotta are more effective in open space and a younger version of The Big Fella can run down the floor in transition well (Shaq will have at least cartoonish expression after running back after a slam). Magic was arguably the greatest I've ever seen at orchestrating the break, but outside of Moncrief and Paxson there aren't any runners on the Class of '79 team.

In the end, I have to give it to Magic over Shaq. The Class of '79 has the bodies to spare to go into Hack-a-Shaq mode and his free-throw shooting woes will play a major role in the outcome (missing the shots, being substituted for 'Zo in closing minutes). Magic (20 points, 9 rebounds, 12 assists) is going to have the ball in his hands and can control the game, while Shaq's dominance is dictated by someone who can get him the ball -- and I don't feel the '92 group has someone who can do that consistently. Plus, Magic is one of the best closers ever (take THAT, Robert Horry).

FINAL SCORE: Class of '79 102, Class of '92 97.

RollWithEm · 04-28-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadBaronRudigor

Back to the guards, I think Jackson was the only one of the bunch who played any PG, he had the best handles and they tried him there a bit when Kidd was out.

You’re right that they tried him in Dallas for awhile in a pinch and that he has good ball-handling skills. He’s definitely not, however, the only one of the bunch who played any point. Peeler started many games at SG, but also played the back-up PG for that 2002-03 Minnesota team. Whenever Troy Hudson wasn’t in the game, Peeler was facilitating that offense which led the league in assists per made basket and finished 5th in offensive efficiency. Also, Christie started at PG for about 35 games for the 1999-00 Raptors when Alvin Williams was hurt or ineffective. Christie also played back-up PG (behind Bibby) for those Sacramento teams whenever Bobby Jackson was hurt. He did a decent enough job of getting the ball up the floor and getting that high-post offense started. Sprewell is actually the only one of these guards who hasn’t really spent any significant amount of time at PG in his career (to my knowledge).

Quote:

As for defense, Sprewell was a pretty good defender when he wasn't sulking, choking his coach, or complaining about not being able to feed his family on 7 million a year.

He was a decent defender in his first few years in New York because he was motivated to cement a place in the league again. Early in his career in Golden State, he was a rather poor defender to my recollection. Also, his defense faded later in his career with his foot speed.

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Christie was a heck of a lot better defender than Peeler too

Christie was better, but calling him “a heck of a lot better” is doing Peeler a disservice IMO. Peeler was the best perimeter defender for several teams in his career. He had quick feet and a deceptively strong upper body. He could stay in front of (most) smaller players while possessing the strength to keep bigger guards uncomfortable on the post. I’d say Christie had quicker hands and better anticipation, but Peeler was a good defender in his own right.

Quote:

With so little bench you might be right about starting Horry but while he has great shooting range, he hasn't got anything close to guard like handles.

You’re right about his handles, but I think his versatility lies in his ability to guard multiple positions. I actually think he’s the best candidate on this team to slow down Magic. That’s why he’s got to be in there.

Also, Najee brought up the possibilities of Walt Williams and Malik Sealy instead of Peeler and Ellis. While I don’t think those selections are bad, I don’t think they really improve the ball-handling ability on this team. Point Guard play is probably going to be this team’s weakness regardless of which players from this draft class you pick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Najee

OK, let's set the rosters:

CLASS OF 1992:

PG: Jimmy Jackson
SG: Latrell Sprewell
SF: Tom Gugliotta
PF: Christian Laettner
C: Shaquille O'Neal

BENCH: P.J. Brown, Doug Christie, Robert Horry, Alonzo Mourning, Malik Sealy, Clarence Weatherspoon and Walt Williams.

Actually, I think this is one of the worst possible defensive teams 1992 can put out there. Peller/Sealy were better defenders than Jackson, Christie was better than Spree, Horry was light years better defensively than Googs, PJ was better than L8, and Zo was better than Shaq defensively. They have a better defensive player at every position. You don’t think subbing Christie for Jackson and Horry for Googs in the starting line-up would balance out the team in that regard?

Najee · 04-28-2008, 10:25 AM

You're severely overrating Robert Horry, a limited spot player whose Johnny-on-the-spot career overshadows the fact he's played with some of the most dominant players in NBA history. Tom Gugliotta is the better overall player -- a much better, more consistent scorer and a better rebounder. Horry is arguably the better defender and may be a better long-range shooter, but his overall game is limited.

I like Doug Christie's versatility a little better coming off the bench than Jimmy Jackson's, plus IMO JJ in his prime was a little better than Christie in his prime. I also like Jackson's size and brawn better in a matchup vs. Magic Johnson; as good as a defender as Christie was, Magic will post him up rather easily and get him into foul trouble. The muscular Jackson will make it harder for Magic to take him in the box.

RollWithEm · 04-28-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Najee

You're severely overrating Robert Horry, a limited spot player whose Johnny-on-the-spot career overshadows the fact he's played with some of the most dominant players in NBA history.

I don’t think I’m over-rating him. He was an above-average-to-very-good defender against players 6’-6” to 6’-11”. He was an above average shooter for a guy his size. I’m not trying to say he was an all-star or even a borderline all-star. I just think he has the best chance of anybody on his draft team of guarding Magic.

Quote:

Tom Gugliotta is the better overall player -- a much better, more consistent scorer and a better rebounder. Horry is arguably the better defender and may be a better long-range shooter, but his overall game is limited.

I will completely agree with your assessment, here. I think you’re 100% right on the mark. That’s precisely why I think a line-up of Christie/Spree/Horry/Laettner/Shaq with Googs as the 6th man would balance out the starters and bench mob for this squad. Actually, Googs could even start instead of Laettner. I think you’d lose a little in terms of passing out of the high post, but the defensive difference would be a wash. You gain a lot of scoring, and L8 would look good beside Jax and Zo off the bench.

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