RollWithEm

This is a match-up that appears a little lopsided on the surface. Let’s see if anyone has any other opinions. Here come the statistically selected and personally selected teams for the 2/7 Match-up in the Len Bias Section:

(2) 1987
G Kevin Johnson
G Reggie Miller
F Scottie Pippen
F Horace Grant
C David Robinson
--------------------------------------------
G Mark Jackson
G Kenny Smith
G Reggie Lewis
G Sarunas Marciulionis
F Reggie Williams
F Dennis Hopson
F Armon Gilliam

Can anyone say four (possibly five) hall-of-famers? This team’s got a pretty decent starting line-up. The only player I would add is Olden Polynice over Dennis Hopson for a little size off the bench. I’d love to put Mugsy on the squad, but he’s quite a bit redundant on this team. Ken Norman might actually add a little size. Maybe I’ll put him in over Marciulionis. Other than that, the team looks solid.

VS

(7) 1983
G Derek Harper
G Doc Rivers
G Clyde Drexler
F Antoine Carr
C Ralph Sampson
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G Byron Scott
G Jeff Malone
G Sedale Threatt
F Dale Ellis
F Roy Hinson
F Rodney McCray
C Thurl Bailey

It’s actually pretty tough to find 12 deserving players from this draft class. I’ll switch them around a little bit. My team would probably look like this:

PG Derek Harper
SG Clyde Drexler
SF Dale Ellis
PF Roy Hinson
C Ralph Sampson
--------------------------------------------
G Doc Rivers
G Byron Scott
G Jeff Malone
F Craig Ehlo
F Antoine Carr
F Mark West (just because this team needs size and rebounding)
C Thurl Bailey

For some reason I always thought the 1983 draft class was better than this. Other than Drexler and young Sampson, none of these guys is an above average rebounder at his position. They’re not particularly strong defensively, and they don’t really appear to have an identity as a team. At least they can score the ball a little, I guess. It’s too bad we all know what Pippen does to Drexler in big games. What do you think would happen?

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But that's just me.

BadBaronRudigor

83 is pretty strong (Mark West was a C and Thurl Bailey a PF for what it is worth). It is just that 87 is brutal. Unless Sampson actually lived up to the hype coming out of college (the next Kareem?), 87 should win this.

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Yao Mania

love Clyde, but the 87 class runs strong 1 through 5, and should easily take it.

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Najee

I would like to know, because I didn't see a game where Clyde Drexler was supposedly stymied by Scottie Pippen. In fact, Drexler is an overall better player than Pippen, who seems to be even more overrated on this board than he was during his career.

And maybe I'm in the minority, but I surely don't see this as some blowout event. The Class of '87 is being overrated a bit here (the group has two eventual hall of famers in Pippen and David Robinson and likely a third -- though somewhat borderline -- in Reggie Miller).

I would say a young Ralph Sampson is not a big dropoff (if any) from David Robinson and Drexler > Pippen. The '83 group actually seems to have a better group of scorers. The '87 group was three good to exceptional defenders (Robinson, Pippen and Horace Grant) but that's it. Not to mention there seems to be some garbage near the end of the '87 bench (at least, what you posted seems to be garbage -- Dennis Hopson? Reggie Williams?). I'll have to give a review later.

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"(Mike) Tyson got a bad rap. He's NEVER messed with anyone outside of boxing. ... What normal person has Tyson blown up on?"

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RollWithEm

Pippen did an excellent job on Drexler in the 1992 Finals. In Game 1, Drexler shot 36% with 4 TOs and Pippen was one rebound short of a triple double (24-10-9). In Game 2, Drexler shot 40% but defended Jordan for much of the game. You can’t blame him for struggling slightly offensively, especially since he did get the win. Pippen was 2 rebounds short of a triple double (16-10-8). In Game 3, Drexler has his best game of the series. He finished with 32, 9, and 8. He shot 12 for 12 from the free throw line. Both he and Pippen had 5 turnovers. Pippen actually did do most of the defensive work on Drexler in that game. Clyde just had it going.

In Games 4, 5, and 6, Drexler shot a combined 38% from the field with 10 turnovers. Jordan defended Pippen for stretches in Game 4 and 6, but Pippen had the assignment almost exclusively in Game 5. In that crucial game, Drexler fouled out. Three of those fouls were offensive fouls. Two of them were actually drawn by Pippen. The other was forced by Pippen’s defensive pressure. Pippen was one assist from a triple double (24-9-10). I’m not saying Scottie was a Drexler-stopper. I’m just saying Pippen did a very good job of limiting his open looks and preventing him from living in the lane.

That one Finals series notwithstanding, I agree that Drexler was a better overall player. His offensive advantage over Scottie outweighed Pippen’s defensive advantage over the course of their careers. I don’t know how overrated or underrated his is on these boards, but Pippen was a legitimate hall-of-fame caliber player in his prime.

Pippen, D Rob, and Reggie are stone cold locks. Kevin Johnson’s case is borderline, but I think he’ll eventually get in. Mark Jackson has an outside shot given his gaudy career assist total, and Horace Grant is even a distant possibility (HOF Monitor score 121).

I would say there’s a pretty big difference between young Ralph Sampson and prime-level David Robinson. Sampson might have been a slightly better rebounder, but Robinson was clearly the superior offensive player of the two in production and efficiency. But if you ignore that all together, D Rob’s defensive skills far outweigh anything Sampson produced in his short career.

You’re right about the scorers on the 1983 team. Also, the bench for the 1987 team is actually what kept them from being #1-caliber in this tournament. I actually wouldn’t include Dennis Hopson in my bench, incidentally. I went with Ken Norman and Olden Polynice over him.

__________________
But that's just me.

Najee

I believe this was your statement:

That sounds like stating that Clyde Drexler got shut down by Scottie Pippen. Of course, if you want to call someone averaging 24.8 points, 7.5 rebounds and 5.3 assists per game in the NBA Finals that instead of completely overstating your previous remark ...

I also like how you selectively picked certain games painting this picture of Drexler, but ignored Pippen's 6-for-19 clunker in Game 21 and his 6-for-15 effort in Game 3. In reality, Michael Jordan (another excellent defender) guarded Drexler more in the '92 Finals than Pippen did. Drexler shot poorly in the NBA Finals, but the entire Blazers unit shot 44 percent from the field.

The Class of '87 has three hall of fame-caliber players (and Reggie Miller and Scottie Pippen need a little context for their explanations). If Kevin Johnson, Mark Jackson and Horace Grant are inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame, then quite frankly it needs to be shut down. Considering Adrian Dantley needed years to get in and guys like Artis Gilmore still cannot get in, it would be ridiculous to let lesser players like these three in.

KJ was a very good player for several seasons until his hamstring problems and seemingly waning interest in his prime eroded his game. There are simply better, more dominant players than KJ who may not be inducted (see Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo, Bernard King, Grant Hill). You can't make the argument that KJ should be voted in ahead of someone like Tim Hardaway, a similar caliber player who had a slighlty longer career who likely won't be inducted.

Jackson was simply an above-average quarterback who is second all time in assists because he played 17 seasons. Jackson only had one season where he played in an All-Star Game. You basically would be inducting Jackson more for preserverence and certainly not for dominance. If you let Jackson in for that, then there are ton of players who should be inducted -- and mostly ahead of him.

Grant is simply a good grunt player but an average player overall. Being a role player on several teams that won titles (the '90s Bulls, the Lakers this decade) does not qualify one for immortality. I can name tons of players who were better than Grant (such as Chris Webber, Shawn Kemp, Marques Johnson, etc.) who won't be inducted.

If this group could have produced a potential fourth hall of famer, IMO it would have been the late Reggie Lewis.

Ralph Sampson was a more skilled offensive player than David Robinson; Robinson was more productive. I can't say Robinson was demonstrably better than Sampson as a defender, or even noticeably better (Sampson was also a good defender). I also felt both men lacked mental toughness, and Robinson was notorious for seeing noticeable production drops in the playoffs.

I give the edge to Robinson, mostly because he had more prolonged better health to Sampson. Robinson would be facing a center who matches him athletically and is three inches taller. Moreover, Robinson's mid- to high-post game is not going to put pressure on Sampson down low.

Yeah, but Snake Norman is at best a marginal improvement over Dennis Hopson (not to mention Norman is shakier) and Olden Polynice was never more than big man who could block shots and rebound occasionally, basically a more athletic Erick Dampier.

__________________
"(Mike) Tyson got a bad rap. He's NEVER messed with anyone outside of boxing. ... What normal person has Tyson blown up on?"

TRAGEDY, who made arguably the most inexplicable quote of 2008.

BadBaronRudigor

not to hijack a thread but Reggie Miller is a long way from being a HOF lock. I'd call him a marginal HOF player. If he hadn't had the big games against NY (which weren't even NBA finals), he would be an extremely unlikely candidate.

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If you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk

RollWithEm

When I read my initial statement again, I can see where it set you off a little bit. I overstated my own feelings towards Pippen’s effectiveness against Drexler. He by no means shut Clyde completely down. I didn’t mean to imply that he did. I was just trying to say that he defended him well in big games.

Regarding all of the debatable candidacies of various potential hall-of-famers, I have 3 comments:

1. Bernard King is a deserving hall-of-famer. If he had had the exact same career but Larry Bird had not had such an outstanding 1983-84 season, King would’ve won the MVP that year and been inducted into the hall by a landslide vote. That’s how much MVP trophies mean to the voters, and that’s how ridiculous the selection process can be. I think it’s a borderline travesty that guys like Artis Gilmore and Spencer Haywood are not in the hall, but guys like Dan Issel are HOFers. If your personality and your game is deemed pleasurable by the media during your career, you have a great shot at getting in despite legitimate flaws in your resume. This leads me into my next point…
   
2. If you think Reggie Miller isn’t a lock to make the hall-of-fame, you’re underestimating what impact public perception has on the voting process. I, personally, think there are more deserving candidates than Reggie. That doesn’t change the fact that he will unquestionably be voted in on the first ballet.
   
3. Chris Webber will also get in the hall, eventually. It may not be as soon as he becomes eligible, but I think he’ll make it. He was top 10 in the MVP voting 5 straight seasons. He made 5 all-star teams and was in the playoffs in 10 of 14 years. These numbers (which clearly influence voters’ decisions) compare favorably with hall-of-fame guys such as Bob Lanier who finished top 10 in the MVP voting 3 times and reached the playoff in 9 of 14 seasons.

__________________
But that's just me.

kflo