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Old 01-11-2013, 12:21 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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No shaq no ring. Fact. Shaq made the all star team. Fact. Shaq was an all nba first teamer. Fact. This conversation is over.


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Shaq was irrelevant in the finals. Fact. Dwayne Wade lead the team, not Shaq, fact. Antoine Walker was averaging more points than Shaq in the finals. Fact.

You can twist your words around this anyway you want to, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that you are clearly wrong when you say that Wade had an all star helping him in the finals. No one on the Miami Heat other than Wade played like an all star in that series, no one. You talking about the all star that Shaq was in the regular season doesn't change that, you of all people should know that the regular season and the playoffs are two completely different things, especially when it's the finals that we are talking about.
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The next time Kyrie tries to hero ball Lebron will dropkick him in the throat.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:24 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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That series changed the way they call the Finals, because those last two games were a farce. I can't complain too much, because it helped the Celtics to a championship in 2008. Seriously, compare the way that Wade was handled by the refs in 2006 against the way the Celtics were allowed to body Kobe in 2008 and 2010(where they would have won had Perk not blown out his knee) or Battier was allowed to drape himself on Durant last year.
And like I said earlier, the rules had a lot to do with the reason as to why Wade was getting those calls that series. Nothing to do with favoring or poor officiating (except for a handful of calls).

And I'm pretty sure the rules favoring the Celtics had nothing to do with the Celtics blowing the Lakers out in game 6 in 2008...
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The next time Kyrie tries to hero ball Lebron will dropkick him in the throat.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:09 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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And like I said earlier, the rules had a lot to do with the reason as to why Wade was getting those calls that series. Nothing to do with favoring or poor officiating (except for a handful of calls).

And I'm pretty sure the rules favoring the Celtics had nothing to do with the Celtics blowing the Lakers out in game 6 in 2008...
Completely forgot about this conversation. The rules didn't change a ton between 2006 and 2008, it was either the way they were interpreted favoring the Heat or just straight-up poor officiating, depending on what camp you're in. The fact that Boston blew game six open in 2008 does nothing to disprove that they were allowed to be inordinately physical with Kobe.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:52 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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Completely forgot about this conversation. The rules didn't change a ton between 2006 and 2008, it was either the way they were interpreted favoring the Heat or just straight-up poor officiating, depending on what camp you're in. The fact that Boston blew game six open in 2008 does nothing to disprove that they were allowed to be inordinately physical with Kobe.
Or Dallas was fouling him like crazy? I don't know. I have to go back and watch the series, but for now I have no real reason to believe that he was being favored by the refs, nor can I believe that this was because of poor officiating.

And your last part is true, but at the same time though, poor officiating regarding Kobe is not why Boston won that series. End of story.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:21 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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Shaq was irrelevant in the finals. Fact. Dwayne Wade lead the team, not Shaq, fact. Antoine Walker was averaging more points than Shaq in the finals. Fact.

You can twist your words around this anyway you want to, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that you are clearly wrong when you say that Wade had an all star helping him in the finals. No one on the Miami Heat other than Wade played like an all star in that series, no one. You talking about the all star that Shaq was in the regular season doesn't change that, you of all people should know that the regular season and the playoffs are two completely different things, especially when it's the finals that we are talking about.
He averaged something like 13/12 in the finals, 18/10 during the playoffs and 20/9 during the regular season.
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Old 03-10-2013, 10:25 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

Just because a guy didn't play all-star caliber in a particular series doesn't mean he wasn't an all-star in general.

If Harden was still with the Thunder and disappeared again in these Finals that doesn't mean the Thunder weren't playing with 3 all-stars against whoever

Especially considering the scouting done against Shaq even playing at a limited level...you still couldn't single team him.

It's not always as simple as numbers.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:11 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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Just because a guy didn't play all-star caliber in a particular series doesn't mean he wasn't an all-star in general.

If Harden was still with the Thunder and disappeared again in these Finals that doesn't mean the Thunder weren't playing with 3 all-stars against whoever

Especially considering the scouting done against Shaq even playing at a limited level...you still couldn't single team him.

It's not always as simple as numbers.
Everyone in a finals series win plays a part in some way in a team winning, especially when some of the games are close like the ones in this series were. With that said, I guess saying Shaq was "irrelevant" was going a little too far, but he most certainly was not a major factor in the Heat winning. Wade was pretty much the only major factor in the Heat winning the finals that year. The man averaged 34 points per game that series for crying out loud.

And I wasn't saying that Wade didn't play with an all star that series, I'm saying that Shaq himself didn't play like an all star. It takes more than attracting a double team on numerous occasions just for someone to play at an all star level.
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The next time Kyrie tries to hero ball Lebron will dropkick him in the throat.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:42 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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Everyone in a finals series win plays a part in some way in a team winning, especially when some of the games are close like the ones in this series were. With that said, I guess saying Shaq was "irrelevant" was going a little too far, but he most certainly was not a major factor in the Heat winning. Wade was pretty much the only major factor in the Heat winning the finals that year. The man averaged 34 points per game that series for crying out loud.

And I wasn't saying that Wade didn't play with an all star that series, I'm saying that Shaq himself didn't play like an all star. It takes more than attracting a double team on numerous occasions just for someone to play at an all star level.

.....and had the refs not been sending him to the foul line any time he fell down, he'd be remembered as having chucked Miami out of a title. I'm not saying it was a fixed series, I'm not saying Miami cheated, but the refs did swing that series. Had Bryant and Gasol been handled that way by the refs in 2008, Pierce and Garnett would still be ringless.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:47 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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.....and had the refs not been sending him to the foul line any time he fell down, he'd be remembered as having chucked Miami out of a title. I'm not saying it was a fixed series, I'm not saying Miami cheated, but the refs did swing that series. Had Bryant and Gasol been handled that way by the refs in 2008, Pierce and Garnett would still be ringless.
I call utter bullshit. Gasol was clearly outplayed by Garnett (although people make to big of a deal over it) and the Celtics were clearly the better team in that series.
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The next time Kyrie tries to hero ball Lebron will dropkick him in the throat.
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:09 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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I call utter bullshit. Gasol was clearly outplayed by Garnett (although people make to big of a deal over it) and the Celtics were clearly the better team in that series.
I watched every game of that series. If the refs blew the whistle every time Bryant and Gasol were touched they each would have gone to the line twenty times a game. 2010 was the same way. If you watched those two Finals series and don't think they were extremely physical contests, I just don't know what else to tell you.
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:15 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

Just a reminder: Pau's failure to respond to tbat physicality was the knock on him ('Gasoft') until he came back the next couple seasons and held his own against Howard and then Garnett
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Old 03-13-2013, 08:25 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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Just a reminder: Pau's failure to respond to tbat physicality was the knock on him ('Gasoft') until he came back the next couple seasons and held his own against Howard and then Garnett
Exactly. Had the refs protected Gasol in 2008 like they protected Wade in 2006 he would have shot 15 free throws a night, Garnett would have spent the entire series on the bench in foul trouble, and Gasol would have averaged a 30-12 against Leon Powe and rookie Glen Davis. Instead, 2008 and 2010 were boxing matches that the refs let the players decide.
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Old 03-13-2013, 01:48 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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I watched every game of that series. If the refs blew the whistle every time Bryant and Gasol were touched they each would have gone to the line twenty times a game. 2010 was the same way. If you watched those two Finals series and don't think they were extremely physical contests, I just don't know what else to tell you.
If they blew the whistle every time they were touched, that would be incredibly poor officiating on their part. You can at least argue that the refs were doing a horrible job officiating in the 2006 finals, and that their officiating cost Dallas the series. But if you honestly think that about the 2008 finals, you need to re watch the entire series. Were there bad calls at times? Absolutely. There will always be bad calls in a finals series. Always. But in no way did poor officiating in any way cost LA the series. Boston outplayed them. It's as simple as that.
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The next time Kyrie tries to hero ball Lebron will dropkick him in the throat.
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:24 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

you're not wrong but I think you're missing the point which is (at least apppears to me to be) that if 2008 had been called like 2006 the outcome would have been different
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Old 03-13-2013, 05:19 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Re: Kevin Love versus historical greats

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If they blew the whistle every time they were touched, that would be incredibly poor officiating on their part. You can at least argue that the refs were doing a horrible job officiating in the 2006 finals, and that their officiating cost Dallas the series. But if you honestly think that about the 2008 finals, you need to re watch the entire series. Were there bad calls at times? Absolutely. There will always be bad calls in a finals series. Always. But in no way did poor officiating in any way cost LA the series. Boston outplayed them. It's as simple as that.
I never said that bad calls cost LA a threepeat, so I don't know what you're arguing. What I did say was that there was such a negative backlash to they way that the 2006 Finals were officiated that the 2008 Finals were officiated in a completely different style, which favored Boston. e-monk got it.
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