7M3

Kenyon Martin over the last 3: 23.7 PPG 16.7 RPG 5.7 APG.

Jason Kidd missed most of the first game in this stretch and did not play in the final 2 (Richard Jefferson also missed 2 games) ... My question is, if put into a go-to role, would K-Mart put up similar numbers?

I'd think he'd be right around 20, 12, and 4.

RangerC

3 good games does not an all star make. K-Mart would be horrible as a 1st option because he can't shoot or score in the post consistantly. The proof is in the statistics. K-Mart shoots 51.8 percent in games where he takes 12 shots or less (i.e. games where he primarily sticks to cleaning up garbage and scoring in transition) but in games where he takes more than 12 shots he shoots 41% (that breakdown was borrowed from the Sporting News). That's a clear sign that Martin is best off as a third option. Also, prior to his 3 good games, Martin laid an egg on the WC road trip where he shot 30% during the first 4 games (he had a 2-10 in an OT loss and a 4-21 in an 8 point loss).

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Charlie Brown

I've actually had a chance to watch the last three Nets games (when Kidd was gone most of the time) and to answer your question that would Martin put up those kind of numbers if he was in a go-to role...

...absolutely.

K-Mart's defense is phenominal, but I do not think anyone could/would argue that.

As far as his offense goe if he take less outside shots and focuses on taking the ball to the rim more, Martin could score around 20 points a game easily. As far as 4's go, he is is easily one of the quickest. Add that too his leaping ability, he could score more and get to the line more.

Charlie Brown

...and for anyone that is interested, here is Martin's line from the last three Nets games.

Nets/Wizards: 19pts-21rebs-8ast
Nets/Hornets: 23pts-13rebs-5ast
Nets/Pistons: 29pts-15rebs-4ast

I am interested in seeing how he will perform this week against Seattle and Philly.

IV

Kenyon's time will come. Unfortunately, there are more deserving players.

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Per em heru

Charlie Brown

Here is a little update. Tonight Martin went for 35 points (13-18) and 12 rebs. He also had a game saving block at the end of regulation I am not sure if it is the allstar thing or something else, but KMart has been playing like a beast.

RangerC

K-Mart average 20 ppg? Right. The only reason why he even has 15 ppg is because he plays in the East, where there's 1 good PF (J'Oneal). Here's what Martin looks like vs. actual PF this year:

vs. J'Oneal - Game 1 - 5-11, 11 pts, outscored by 5

vs. Elton Brand - Game 1 - 8-16, 16 pts, outscored by 4
Game 2 - 4-12, 10 pts, outscored by 11

vs. Tim Duncan - Game 1 - 3-10, 8 pts, outscored by 13

vs. Dirk Nowitzki - Game 1 - 4-9, 11 pts, outscored by 7

vs. Amare Stoudamire - Game 1 - 5-19, 13 pts, even scoring
Game 2 - 5-10, 11 pts, outscored by 8

vs. Rasheed Wallace - Game 1 - 3-7, 11 pts, ahead by 1
Game 2 - 4-14, 10 pts, ahead by 3

vs. Kevin Garnett - Game 1 - 5-9, 13 pts, outscored by 10
Game 2 - 6-16, 12 pts, outscored by 7

vs. Chris Webber - Game 1 - 4-12, 8 pts, outscored by 11
Game 2 - 5-8, 17 pts, outscored by 19

vs. Karl Malone - Game 1 - 2-10, 4 pts, outscored by 20

vs. Troy Murphy - Game 1 - 4-21, 10 pts, outscored by 1

Martin has shot over .500 vs. actual PF twice in 15 matchups. He has outscored an actual PF twice in 15 matchups. This is NOT a guy who can cut it as a 1st option. In the West, he'd be the 11th best PF (maybe). He hasn't shown any sign of being able to score against real PF or even shoot a high percentage, despite being spoonfed by Jason Kidd.

__________________
"It was like going 7-against-5 because all the refs are looking
at them like they're already in the of Fame," - Tim Thomas on the LA Lakers

Sangha

RangerC = My favourite poster

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Arclite

Martin has a lot of toughness and good athleticism, but still has a lot of work to do on his offensive game.. Hard to ignore RangerC's post.

Charlie Brown

lol. Way to miss the point of thread.

Earlier in the season during the games that you mentioned, KMart was not the first option (or second or third). The Nets starting five spread out the shot attempts pretty evenly. While no single player scored a lot, there were quite a few players around the 15 ppg mark and six or seven players average in double figures (I believe).

Martin always had the assignment of guarding the opposing teams toughest man (1-4), not matter if it was a T-Mac or a Tim Duncan. He conistantly held them below their season averages.

Additionally, during that time most of the Nets starters were playing between 30-35 minutes per game.

So Martin's numbers were hurt by lack of attempts, lack of minutes, and intentional focus on defense over offense.

Now, which is what this thread was about, the Nets have had quite a few injuries and KMart was asked to shoulder a larger role with more shot attempts and more minutes. During that period he has really stepped up (26.5 ppg and 15 rpg) and the players guarding him were not exactly scrubs (PJ Brown, Ben Wallace, Rashard Lewis).

Of course if he will continue to play at this level or not is another question, but over the past 20 games or so he has been around 17 ppg and 11rpg with out losing any defense quality.

BBallFan

amen to that. I read RangerC's post last night, and I was not even going to respond, since I was so sick of having to explain the impact KMart makes to people... until I noticed someone viewing RangerC's post as law, and essentially quoting it elsewhere.

Firstly, like PSU said, earlier in the season KMart did not have the same role in the offense: that changes as season progresses. Some players have that click in midseason. If someone scores 10ppg to start the season, and then all of a sudden, from January on, scores 30 (this isn't KMart, just an example): can you really conclude that he just wasn't capable of scoring on his defenders from the beginning? That can be a very wrong assumption.

Not to mention, you're acting like all that a player can do to benefit his team is scoring.

Jermaine scored 15 points, 3 turnovers on 16 shots, vs. Kenyon's 11 points, 1 turnover on 11 shots... not to mention, that if you actually watched the playoffs last year, you'd realize that O'Neal was useless against KMart. But he can't hold his own against talented PFs, right?

Against Brand? First game, Brand had 20 points on 13 shots... but 7 turnovers. KMart had 16 points on 16 shots, and 0 turnovers... did Brand really outplay him? Do you really believe that KMart didn't get fouled all game? Sometimes players don't get the respect of refs yet... Second game... you're right, Brand might have outplayed him. But can't it happen sometimes without labeling a player unable to perform against top-tier players? Not to mention that sometimes it happens, when ticky-tack calls happen against KMart. When he can't be as an aggressive of a defender, he's not as effective of one, obviously.

Against Duncan? Did you watch that game? You should have... it was on national tv. And if you didn't, you wouldn't say he got majorly outplayed by Duncan. Duncan only scored once KMart got in foul-trouble... and did those fouls really look like fouls to you?

Nowitzki: Nowitzki shot 28% on 18 shots, and Martin shot 44% on 9 shots. Think that might explain why Martin got outscored?

I could go on, but I shouldn't have to get stats for people who obviously didn't watch, or follow the games anymore than looking at boxscores. He got criticized for not putting up stats... and now that he's putting up stats, he's getting criticized for not putting up stats before.

Even without stats, there's plenty more to being an allstar than scoring points. Do people care when Ben Wallace gets outscored by other PFs? And I'd argue to say that KMart does a better job man-to-man defending anyone than Ben Wallace. KMart is one of those rare players who can take over games without scoring... the criticisism he gets is ridiculous.

KMart is becoming as important to the Nets success as Jason Kidd is... and I've been saying that before he started putting up some fancy stats.

rainman

martin made the comment that he was going to destroy everyone he played against after he was left off the all star team.to that i say,i want guys who will destroy the competion every night,not just when motivated.reminds me of superbowl 3.namath was talking how the jets were going to win the game and the colts response was, now we're going to kill them.weeb ewbank got mad at namath for making the commentto which joe replied,if they need motivation to beat us we have them right where we want them.

Arclite

The question of the thread is could K-Mart put up similar numbers to what he's been doing since all-star announcements if he was a go-to guy. Kenyon Martin does not have the offensive polish to be a go-to guy. I thought it was pretty simple..

BBallFan, it's nice that you made all those points about Martin's good defense and all, but on top of us already knowing that, it wasn't the point of the thread.

P.S. K-mart is not nearly as instrumental to NJ's success as Kidd is. Without Kidd, New Jersey is nothing. Period.

Charlie Brown

When Martin's numbers were down earlier in the season, people said he couldn't score and the points he does get are directly related to Jason Kidd. They also said he couldn't rebound for a PF.

So when Kidd went down, what did Martin do? He put up 26 ppg and 15 rpg.

But then people questioned the opponents he played in that stretch, so I pointed out over the past 20 games he has been averaging 17 ppg and 11 rpg.

In my first post I stated that I feel Martin could score around 20 ppg. IMO around 20 ppg is 18-22 ppg. Over the past 20 games, close to a quarter of the season, he has been at 17 ppg. Add that to the fact that he started out averaging 15 ppg, then moved up to 17ppg, and has been scoring well over 25 ppg over the last four games, I clearly see an improvement in his game and no reason he can not average 18-22 ppg.

If you thought that was pretty simple, more power to you.

But I would question how many Nets games you actually get to watch. Because there has been a clear improvement in Martin over the past couple months.

He has always had freakish size and speed (which is why he was a stand out defender right out of the box), but lacked the offensive polish which he has clearly been improving on lately.

Or maybe you are into Rasheed Wallace/Kevin Garnett types who can shoot the three and what not, I don't know. But the common NBA fan seems to stereotype what a star is too easily. It's clear that we are in the age where people love 7'0" guys who can dribble and shoot from anywhere (which is why there are very few true centers around). But IMO that is not the only way to be affective. Martin is changing the games he is in on both ends of the floor.

No offense bro, but that is just flat out silly. I am not saying that the Nets are the Kings or Mavs, but they have a lot of talent outside of Kidd.

If you think the Nets are Kidd and a bunch of mediocre cats, I seriously question how much basketball you watch.

Arclite

The 26-56 to 56-26 turnaround in one season wasn't because of Kenyon Martin or Keith Van Horn having an epiphany. It was because of Jason Kidd. You can't argue that.

I'm not denying Martin is a very good player who appears to be improving, and fast. All I'm saying is that he doesn't have the offensive output to carry a (good) team.