Thread Tools

Display Modes

HB · 03-31-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rundmc00

If opposing players do better against Sheed than Twin, how is Rasheed the better man to man defender?

Refer to post #37

NBASCOUT2005 · 03-31-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rundmc00

Here is the complete list:

Shaq against Detroit - 30 ppg; Shaq against Twin - 17 ppg

Gasol against Detroit - 30 ppg; Gasol against Twin - 15 ppg

ZachR against Detroit - 29 ppg; ZachR against Twin - 16 ppg

TD against Detroit - 18 ppg; ZachR against Twin - 19 ppg

Jamson against Detroit - 18 ppg; Jamison against Twin - 17 ppg

Brand against Detroit - 33 ppg; Brand against Twin - 20 ppg

Nowitzski against Detroit - 24 ppg; Nowitzski against Twin - 26 ppg

Bosh against Detroit - 26 ppg; Bosh against Twin - 23 ppg

KG against Detroit - 16 ppg; KG against Twin - 25 ppg

On average (using a simple rather than weighted average), Twin gives up 20 points and the Wallaces give up 25. And these games make up about 1/3 of this season so it is defiantely a significant sample.

Consider the 5 point difference in the numbers and that Detroit help defense (the other Wallace) is better than the Nets...it is pretty clear if I was an elite big I'd rather play Detroit than Twin.

All-NBA please!!!

Those stats you cited are more a reflection of the overall team-defense of the NETS helping cover for and mask Twin's deficiencies than any testament to Twin's play.

Put another way, if Twin was on most other teams, not only would he not be given credit for any of that, but those numbers wouldn't exist.

Twin looks good because the NETS make him look better than he is.

The little, important, intangible things Twin does do not compensate for not having a Wilcox, Wallace or, even, Ely in there. Why do you suppose the NETS went shopping for a PF last summer? Why did they inquire about Wilcox and Ely, to mention a few? Get real!!!

Twin is 'good enough to lose with.' Even if the NETS manage to cop a title with Kidd, Carter & Co. in spite of Twin, it'd be the greatest over-achievement in the history of sport!

Imagine how awesome the NETS'd be with a Wilcox, Wallace or, even Ely, in there? Victories would come easier and the NETS would be in-vince-able. You can't start a dynasty with Collins!

kdub · 03-31-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hbwoy

Are you really serious? You really think Twin is a better post defender than Rasheed. Not only does Rasheed have excellent hands and good footwork to keep up with post players. He also is a much better shot blocker and rebounder. And yes shot blocking and rebounding are also forms of defense.

I guess Cliffy is also a better defender than Rasheed

Note again, Collins is not asked to do as much as guys like Rasheed. Rasheed is still a very important part of that offense, most especially since Ben rarely does anything on that end. Energy does play an important factor in defense

Sorry, but you're wrong.

Really who cares how much energy Rasheed needs to spend on offense. We're talking about defense here, who the best defender is. It's the Defensive Player of Year award, not the "Equilibrium player who has a less than perfect defense because he needs to spend energy of offense" award.

You can argue that rebounds and blocks and steals have something to do with defense, but at the end of the day, the point of defense is to limit the number of points your opponent scores. Jason Collins obviously excels at that, better than other players. Remember, rundmc00's topic title is not the best rebounding, shot blocking, 3 pt shooting big, but the "best post defender."

Jason Collins is either the best or one of the best post defenders in the league at limiting his opponent's scoring and scoring efficiency.

kdub · 03-31-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rundmc00

That is bull****. If Sheed is a better low post defender why do elite PFs do better against him than Twin? Especially since Sheed always has Big Ben roaming. And vica versa on Big Ben.

See my numbers below. Twin is better at keeping his man in check than either Wallace. The numbers are indisputable.

Agreed. The Wallaces also have Dice backing them up. Twin has Krstic, Murray, and Robinson... and he's still better!

kdub · 03-31-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord-SMX

i still think that jason kidd is the reason why we have been winning, and not jason collins! If you want to see one of the best defenders (ever?) then look at #5!!! He is been lights out on D, stopping MVP candidates like Steve Nash, Bullips, and Kobe!!! And not just slowing down, but shutting them DOWN!

Nash: 0pts (first time in 200+ games)
Bullips: 9pts (all in the 4th quarter)
Kobe: 24pts (maybe the greatest scoring guard ever and held him 10pts under his average)
C.Atkins: 5pts 1-6
G.Arenas: 6-17 (1-5 from 3)
Terry: 3-10 8pts
------------
Thats 4 allstar players SHUT DOWN!

---------------------------------------------
Kidd should be DPOY!

I believe the success of the team has been the defensive skill of both Collins and Kidd, but I agree with the rest of this post. Jason Kidd has also been flat out amazing at stopping his man.

kdub · 03-31-2006, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jizzy

This is a Collins defensive thread yet posters continue to bash him over his offense. Collins takes so much blame and even when we do win, he still gets blamed. Twin is one of the most underrated players in the league. Van Gundy and Riley along with Mike Breen and Walt Frazier believe that. Vescey said Twin gets no recognition but is a HUGE part of that team.

BTW, for you stat whores. Pau Gasol has never scored more then 21 points against NJ in his career. Learn the game, chumps

Beautiful post.

NBASCOUT2005 · 03-31-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rundmc00

Answer the question...if the other guys are better man to man defenders...why do opponents score less against Twin?

One last time! It's because of the NETS help-defense! Twin needs a lot of help! The hype for Twin is undeserved. Those numbers are a tribute to the NETS' overall team defense - in spite of Twin.

I know what constitutes a valuable, offense-impaired, powerful defensive PF. Twin 'aint it!!!

Look at it this way. How many defensive power forwards can play above-the-rim and sky for rebounds, block shots and scare their opponents defensively while posting big numbers every now and then? When you think of a defensive PF, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman come to mind. Collins doesn't qualify. He's a great backup that does a lot of little things well and brings enough intangibles to make you fall in love with him ... as a backup!!!

kdub · 03-31-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NBASCOUT2005

Figures lie. And liars figure.

I've seen enough of Twin at crucial junctures.

He's a very seductive chameleon. His spots (e.g., stats) change often.

He morphs into an all-pro defender from a statue 'from time-to-time.' The rest of the league helps him out ... starting with JVG's recent plug, etc.

The only ones that want him to get that recognition and remain a starting 4 for the NETS are opponents.

Remember that P. Jax wanted Oakley desperately to remain at the 4 for the NYK during the Riley era. Phil didn't miss a beat when talking up the opponents weakest link - Oak.

Heaping praise on the likes of Oak and Mase was good for CHI. That was Phil's advantage.

Oak, as good as he was, was a choke-artist. Mase, too! Twin is not nearly as good as Oak.

If you think Oak was so good, why did they trade him for Cartwright?

If you want a title, steer clear of Twin.

P.S. Oak was good enough to lose with. Twin is more than the same.

*Trivia: POR offered 21yr old Jermaine O'Neal to NYK for 30 something Oak and Mase. NYK balked and countered with one or the other. POR wanted both. Both were past-their-prime with serious flaws that'd been unmasked repeatedly. I'd have taken Jermaine's potential over the two past-their prime, veteran, good-enough-to-lose-with choke-artists any day!!! CHI took Cartwright's potential over Oakley's proven ability, didn't they? How many rings are on Jax's fingers vs. Riles?

I don't know who reps you, but they need to be banned.

**Krstic All Star** · 03-31-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NBASCOUT2005

One last time! It's because of the NETS help-defense! Twin needs a lot of help! The hype for Twin is undeserved. Those numbers are a tribute to the NETS' overall team defense - in spite of Twin.

I know what constitutes a valuable, offense-impaired, powerful defensive PF. Twin 'aint it!!!

Look at it this way. How many defensive power forwards can play above-the-rim and sky for rebounds, block shots and scare their opponents defensively while posting big numbers every now and then? When you think of a defensive PF, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman come to mind. Collins doesn't qualify. He's a great backup that does a lot of little things well and brings enough intangibles to make you fall in love with him ... as a backup!!!

While I also feel that Collins should be a backup - and great at it - the concept of defense requiring skywalkers seems a bit off. Anthony Mason and Charles Oakley come to mind when thinking of defensive PF's. Tim Duncan will never win a slam dunk competition; neither would Kevin McHale.

rundmc00 · 03-31-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NBASCOUT2005

Those stats you cited are more a reflection of the overall team-defense of the NETS helping cover for and mask Twin's deficiencies than any testament to Twin's play.

Put another way, if Twin was on most other teams, not only would he not be given credit for any of that, but those numbers wouldn't exist.

Twin looks good because the NETS make him look better than he is.

The little, important, intangible things Twin does do not compensate for not having a Wilcox, Wallace or, even, Ely in there. Why do you suppose the NETS went shopping for a PF last summer? Why did they inquire about Wilcox and Ely, to mention a few? Get real!!!

Twin is 'good enough to lose with.' Even if the NETS manage to cop a title with Kidd, Carter & Co. in spite of Twin, it'd be the greatest over-achievement in the history of sport!

Imagine how awesome the NETS'd be with a Wilcox, Wallace or, even Ely, in there? Victories would come easier and the NETS would be in-vince-able. You can't start a dynasty with Collins!

Nice way to blow off the facts. And like Nenad is a better help defender than Ben Wallace.

And the last Heat game, Twin guarded Shaq straight up and he had his worst game of the season.

So your comments as if you know better are cute but reality is different.

NBASCOUT2005 · 03-31-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jizzy

This is a Collins defensive thread yet posters continue to bash him over his offense. Collins takes so much blame and even when we do win, he still gets blamed. Twin is one of the most underrated players in the league. Van Gundy and Riley along with Mike Breen and Walt Frazier believe that. Vescey said Twin gets no recognition but is a HUGE part of that team.

BTW, for you stat whores. Pau Gasol has never scored more then 21 points against NJ in his career. Learn the game, chumps

Twin wouldn't be arousing so much controversy if he were truly a great, self-effacing, underrated, defensive power forward. The reality is that he's got quite a rooting section and when you need someone to tell you he's better than your own eyes can see, something's wrong.

The delusory aspect of the whole matter is that the NETS can and will win against teams that don't have a great PF; or that have one but are extending 'professional courtesy' to Jason Collins in any NETS' victory. Every naive jerk then jumps on his bandwagon because the NETS are winning with Twin in the lineup. In a playoff setting, reality emerges and the veil of illusion is ripped from your face.

Twin has the society-for-mediocre-fools'-gold-power-forwards lobbying intensely for his acceptance. It not only keeps the scale up for mediocre PFs, but punishes the NETS for not giving the max to another mediocre-but-better PF: K-Mart. Is it any wonder the rest of the league is insisting the NETS 'hitch their wagon' only to PF hopes based on Twin ... and not some upgrade ... that they ungraciously ... do not make available in trade to NJN?

Does the K-Mart beetch about being the 'Bambino' and the wild 'Zo threats against Rod fit a pattern? Sure, they're designed to intimidate the new NETS owner and his management because they didn't ante up the extortion ransom on the max for Knee-Mart. Check out The Nets look pretty smart in hindsight by Sean Deveney of The Sporting News. Talk about a 'blessing in disguise.'

Even if the NETS win a title -- doubtful with Collins at the 4 -- it won't change the reality. If it happens, be sure the NETS'd have had a dynasty with a legitimate PF.

rundmc00 · 03-31-2006, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NBASCOUT2005

One last time! It's because of the NETS help-defense! Twin needs a lot of help! The hype for Twin is undeserved. Those numbers are a tribute to the NETS' overall team defense - in spite of Twin.

I know what constitutes a valuable, offense-impaired, powerful defensive PF. Twin 'aint it!!!

Look at it this way. How many defensive power forwards can play above-the-rim and sky for rebounds, block shots and scare their opponents defensively while posting big numbers every now and then? When you think of a defensive PF, Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman come to mind. Collins doesn't qualify. He's a great backup that does a lot of little things well and brings enough intangibles to make you fall in love with him ... as a backup!!!

Oh yeah, the Nets have so much more defensive help than Big Ben roaming the paint.

BTW - Did you watch Twin guard Shaq one on one in the last game?

Thread Tools Display Modes

Thread Tools

Display Modes