seifer0406

Shaq has won everywhere he went. When he left the Lakers it had nothing to do with the team's success, and when he left Miami he did not make a huge fuss prior to him being traded, and certainly wasn't the main reason why the Heat loss this year. Not to mention when he got traded he's only a player averaging around 12 points a game. He's barely a starter this year, let alone a star.

Winner is indeed a loose definition and it's a term that's based on consensus. It is definitely an arguable term, but it's not out of the ballpark to consider a 10+ year veteran that has never made it past the 2nd round a loser. And also if you remember correctly, the original point was that the Raptors didn't put a winning team around Vince. You will have to ask that guy what he considers to be winning. If he meant a .500 team that barely makes top 8 every year, then the Raptors had that for Vince until the very end. If you're talking about conference finals or finals, then Raptors didn't have it, and Vince doesn't have it in him as well.

And HB it seems like you are just arguing single points at a time without seeing the big picture that the points are leading to. We can do this all day and it will not have any influence on the original argument.

HB

Well I am just pointing out the parts of your posts that I disagree with, but to basically sum it up no I dont believe Vince is a loser. I dont ever recall him playing with a dominant big man either, and one thing the last four championship teams I mentioned that have won the title this decade have in common are dominant bigs.

Your original arguemtent is that he isnt a winner right?

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seifer0406

Some people said that Toronto failed to put a winning team around Vince, and what I'm saying is that Vince isn't someone that can win anything to begin with. That's pretty much the gist of it.

Whether or not you view him as a loser is your call. But what I'm saying is if he doesn't push his career any further, then one will ask how much did the Raptors really hold him back when he was complaining about not being able to win with his team. If he isn't someone that can lead or even be a part of a team that can "win", then what exactly was he complaining back then? He had a .500 team in TO, and now theres a chance that he might finish his career playing for a bunch of .500 teams, not to mention some of them are considered to be major underachievers.

Again, if he goes on and lead this Nets team or whichever team to great things then I'll gladly eat my word. But if he doesn't, these are the questions I will be asking.

HB

Which completely goes agains the logic that NO TEAM without a dominant big man can win the championship, at least going by the trend in the NBA in the last 10 or so years.

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seifer0406

And let's worry about that when Vince pushes past the 2nd round. I'm not even judging him by championships, that would be reserved for guys like KG. Frankly I'm not using a high standard for Vince, but sadly he hasn't even clear that.

Can a team without any dominant big man make it past the 2nd round? I'm pretty sure it can. Should Vince be able to lead a Nets team to more than 35 wins this year? It should be doable as well. The bar really isn't that high, I just don't see how anyone can say with evidence that Vince has shown that the Raptors held him back with what he has done post TO.

HB

He was one shot away from making it to the ECF with the Raptors. That final game could have gone either way. Somehow I dont think you would be singing the same tune if that had happened. People just like to nitpick and jump on the whole winner or not arguement. I have done it also in the past so I am not exempt from that group. Bottom line is basketball is a game of balance.

The Nets in the past 3 years have faced the Heat team and that has been their demise. Those Heat teams have had some of the best frontcourt players in the league. Its no surprise that they have faltered every year. That second round arguement doesn't make sense because the Nets team have gone up against superior frontcourts.

Could he have done better with Toronto, sure! But more times than not, the guy was a one man show out there. The teams built around him were simply NOT that good.

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seifer0406

Well, then as I said, you can re-examine Vince career when it's finished. I'm not going to try to convince everyone since there are always going to be excuses made everywhere and don't get me wrong some of these excuses are quite valid. I mean, would he have made that shot against Philly if he didn't choose to attend his graduation the morning of the game 7? Could Vince's poor decision cause his own demise? These are the questions.

When people look back at his career we can see what the consensus would be and whether that's similar to what I'm saying right now.

If you look at F1 drivers, some of them gets stuck on bad cars and never win anything. But if a driver moves from company to company and still never better his result, then there is obviously some doubts on whether or not the guy is a good driver to begin with, I don't see how that's against logic.

arhie

Seifer0406 you make me sick. Heres a definition of a winner: Someone who has won the majority of the games in their career. Now by that definition- Vince is a winner. Heres another definition: Someone who has a positive impact on the game, and the team just doesn't do as good without him. By the 2nd definition- Vince is extremely important. Just look at 82games.com - and you'll notice that he leads the league in tha category this season.
As for his teams- every year his teams were flawed except his 2nd year playoff team.
1999-00- Swept in first round 0-3. Vince had playoff jitters- he stunk it up. No excuses. He had the help in an improving Tmac, had frontcourt players like Davis, and Oakley. Perhaps you can fault the raptors in not having a great point guard.
2000-01- Loss in game 7 of 2nd round. Antonio Davis was a solid big man, an allstar that year, but he wasn't a true BIG man. Essentially Vince had no 2nd guy and he carried a team to the 2nd round. Alvin Williams is a solid player but he wasn't no great point guard. You think Mo Pete is the key a 2nd guy. If they still had Mark Jackson in the playoffs they might have done even better. Oakley is a good gritty player, but you can't count on the team for offense.
2004-05: In games 1, and 2 - RJ was a nonfactor. So you had Kidd, a rookie in Krstic (open shots all day), Rodney Buford, Travis Best, Jabari smith, Billy Thomas, Planninic, and Jason Collins up front. And now only 3 of those guys are still in the league today. F*ck even making the playoffs with that roster was impressive, let alone facing a contender (#1 seed). Vince was doubled and triple teamed all day and no body could make a shot except Krstic. RJ was back in game 3 and 4, those games were a little bit closer. But Krstic and Collins is no Shaq, Haslem and Alonzo Mourning.
2005-06- Beat the pacers. Beat the heat in game 1, but in the end it was going to difficult. With the 'big three' scoring 75% of the points in the series. And having Lamond Murray as ur next best bet. Its hard to win. I mean Josh Thomas guarding Shaq?? You got to be kidding me. No one guarded Wade, but Carter destroyed the heat as well, so it kind of balanced out. can't blame Vince in this series.
2006-07: This was the first year other than his first season that he had somewhat of a team and he wasn't able to pull it thorugh. No way they should have lost against Lebron and co. NO WAY. Vince put apathetic performances in game 5 and 6 of that series that any Carter fan got sick of. Later we found out he was hurt, but still. You got to take more than 22 shots in 2 games to beat any team in the playoffs.
But we didn't lose because Lebron was so much better than Vince+ RJ. We lost because our frontcourt other than Moore got abused. Collins was a nonfactor. Z and Gooden and Varejao changed the series. IF Vince played better we might have pulled it off.

MaxaMillion711

your not seriously going on that argument, are you? you do realize he arrived in Phili BEFORE the team right? It had no bering on the outcome of the game. Doug Collins said that on the broadcast. He had 20pts and great rebound assist numbers and ZERO turnovers that game.

Anways, VInce was really important to the Raptors. More so than other starts on other teams. He WAS the country of Canada and he WAS the NBA for a while. So when he wanted out due to crappy management (which is now changed...) they were not going to AGREE with Vince. of course they are going to be mad at him. He quit on the team. So did TMac in 2004....so did baron davis in new orleans....so do a lot of players these days.

seifer0406

As I said, in the eyes of Vince fans, Vince can do no wrong. I mean, arrived Philly before the team? How about he had to spend extra time traveling while the team is resting? Oh wait, Doug Collins said it, that has to be true. And just for the record, I'm not saying that going to his graduation was the cause of the loss. HB was playing the if game in his post and I said you would have to factor this in as well if we want to play that game.

If you want to define a winner as someone that wins majority of their games, then sure, Vince is a winner. Vince must be delusional when he left TO in order to win, since he was already "winning" in TO.

I'm not going to try to convince everyone especially diehard VC fans. But if you want to argue my points, at least read everything and get the gist of what I'm saying and not just argue the semantics, because frankly it's just wasting everyone's time.

HB

And then of course you have the familiar delusional Vince fans statement. Never mind that Raptors fans will heap all sorts of blame on Vince and completely ignore the fact that management was also messing up. I didnt see you mention any of that Seifer, is it fair if I call you a jilted raptor fan that still hates on Vince after four or so years after the trade.

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seifer0406

If Raptor fans are mad at Vince because he caused the team to suck after he left? Sure. However I remember saying it repeatedly that wasn't the cause for all that hatred, at least it isn't why I dislike Vince Carter.

For someone that's tired of VC/TO thread, it seems like you still didn't understand what goes on in those threads. I really don't want to go into the whole thing again, it really has nothing to do with what I'm saying in this thread. We're talking about whether VC is a "winner", whether I like him or not will not change the facts that I've said about him.

HB