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**Da Grinch** · 03-21-2006, 04:13 PM

ESPN Chat wrote:

Quote:

Andrew (NYC): Steph and Larry Brown have really come to a breaking point in thier relationship. Conventional Wisdom is saying that the Knicks will shop Marbury, but what are the odds that Brown will go instead, since Steph is so untradeable?

John Hollinger: Zero. What you are seeing is Brown's manipulative genius at work. He didn't want Marbury but Isiah didn't really want to trade him, so Brown (mis)managed the situation perfectly to the point that the Knicks HAVE TO trade him. Now next year he'll have a team that he'll feel like coaching.

To me this sounds about right because it does make sense , LB has basically positioned a team in 2 parts , the ones he likes and the ones he doesn't marbury is obviously in the pile that he doesn't like and has been trying his darndest to show it.

**Krstic All Star** · 03-21-2006, 09:35 PM

Makes sense to me too. My question is what kind of value can he realistically expect to get for the parts he doesn't want? They're all damaged goods...

**knicksfan** · 03-22-2006, 08:27 AM

And Larry SINGLEHANDIDLY made them damaged goods. If I was Zeke I'd screw with LB like LB screwed with Marbury and Jamal. Make him feel uncomfortable and not in control to the point where he will quit AND THEREFORE NOT HAVE TO BE PAID HIS CONTRACT FURTHER.

Free Arsenal · 03-22-2006, 09:09 AM

Isn't that what LB always does, force players into submission?

alphadog · 03-22-2006, 09:48 AM

#1) Marbury never was as good as he thought he was and would never be accused by anyone with a brain of being a winner, a team first kind of guy, or a cornerstone of a franchise.

#2) JC has never played a better all around game than he is currently playing. I have to assume that the wild cross-overs and ill-advised shots sandwiched around no defensive effort stints up the court are missed by you?

#3) MOST players that played under him have the utmost respect for him as a coach. Most of the rest are either not winners or can't play for anyone with discipline.

#4) LB forces players tp play within a structure.....HIS structure. It happens to be what good coaches do.

Free Arsenal · 03-22-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphadog

#1) Marbury never was as good as he thought he was and would never be accused by anyone with a brain of being a winner, a team first kind of guy, or a cornerstone of a franchise.

#2) JC has never played a better all around game than he is currently playing. I have to assume that the wild cross-overs and ill-advised shots sandwiched around no defensive effort stints up the court are missed by you?

#3) MOST players that played under him have the utmost respect for him as a coach. Most of the rest are either not winners or can't play for anyone with discipline.

#4) LB forces players tp play within a structure.....HIS structure. It happens to be what good coaches do.

So what about Mike D'Antoni?

**Da Grinch** · 03-22-2006, 12:48 PM

i have always found LB to be an excellent coach , but this season has been a horrible job by him.

there is no rotation.

half the players have no roles .

the other half haven't meshed with the sys. (except for jalen)

the defense has been just as bad as last year and the offense has been an eyesore, much worse than last year a fact everyone can agree on ...and they had no plays under herb just the pick and roll.

to top it off the knicks have been a mess in the news due to larry's bashing.

i dont think there has been a worse coaching job in recent memory by a 1st year guy.

Chinatownballer · 03-22-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphadog

#1) Marbury never was as good as he thought he was and would never be accused by anyone with a brain of being a winner, a team first kind of guy, or a cornerstone of a franchise.

#2) JC has never played a better all around game than he is currently playing. I have to assume that the wild cross-overs and ill-advised shots sandwiched around no defensive effort stints up the court are missed by you?

#3) MOST players that played under him have the utmost respect for him as a coach. Most of the rest are either not winners or can't play for anyone with discipline.

#4) LB forces players tp play within a structure.....HIS structure. It happens to be what good coaches do.

Good coaches also make the most out of their players and find the right people with chemistry to play at the same time...

Larry Brown's rotations most of the time seem like complete accidents. We had a solid rotation for six games when we were winning and then LB seems to forget that he has players who try night in and night out (Larry Brown type of players) and he plays the veterans! Yes, he plays the same lacadaisical veterans who he accuses of not trying hard enough when he has Nate, DLee, Qyntel, JButler. Why, especially when the season is tanked does LB refuse to play the very players who are ready to play his way big minutes???!!!

Is stubborn old Larry Brown actually giving in to Zekes requests as to who he should play? There are units that LB could play that have teamwork and hustle aka the youngins but for some reason LB "forces players tp play within a structure" and we're not talking about the players that are willing to learn his way we're talking about Starbury, Francis, and the other veterans who either don't try or simply don't have the talent.

One player who you criticize above i have something to say for. JCraw is all the things you stated above BUT what you have to consider is that he is willing to learn, he has shown that he can help on the boards, he isn't afraid of taking big shots and he doesnt have an ego the size of Stephs lightbulbhead! Despite the fact that i hate his game and i think he's an inconsistent **** i think Crawford is someone who deserves to play simply because he has the character that alot of our Knicks seem to lack. If LB is truly as great a coach as people say then he can make the most out of Crawford's game giving him the touches when he's on and keeping the ball far far away from him when he's off. One thing Crawford can't do is play the point. Give him open Js and i'm happy. Ask him to be our floor general and i become a Nets fan (not quite but you see my frustration).

LB has got to wake up and play those who try and bench the *******s who play with no heart. As patient as i've been with Steph and as much as i realize he was a great point guard for the stretch of 6games i also realise that he's a baby. He plays well when everyones pampering him and treating him like a king and he cries to the press when LB criticizes him. Instead of relying on an unstable firecracker like Steph who could go off at any minute we have to give credit where its deserved, characterwise.

alphadog · 03-22-2006, 02:09 PM

..and Marbury didn't...or wouldn't fit in it. It's just different than LBs. Don't forget...the Suns have mega talent and haven't won anything yet. Even Dallas has had to emphasize more defense to be able to compete against the top levels. Every great team has a system that they adhere to. No team is successful just turning guys loose to do their thing.

I also think LB has done a poor job but I don't know who could have done much better with this group of misfits. I take most exception with his lack of play for Lee but after seeing how Nate has improved by playing under LBs rules, and how Frye is rapidly becoming a more complete player, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding Lee's playing time. He is trying to teach him a new position (and the reality IS that Lee prolly needs to be a sf to be a real factor in the league) and it's nearly imnpossible to implement it during the season. I suspect Lee will do everything Ariza did not do.....improve his handle and his shot(already better than Ariza's on both counts) and be in the running for starter's minutes next year. Even Curry is making baby strides while trying to play a different way. All the guys that are trying to play Larry's way ARE getting better. Hell, even Marbury was playing great before he got banged up....he just didn't like playing that way. I wouldn't be too hard on LB until he has players who are willing to play the right way. It might take a couple of years but Mike James and Harrington would be a great start

**Gotham2krazy** · 03-22-2006, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Grinch

To me this sounds about right because it does make sense , LB has basically positioned a team in 2 parts , the ones he likes and the ones he doesn't marbury is obviously in the pile that he doesn't like and has been trying his darndest to show it.

The funny thing is, my dad's been saying this ever since they started losing. It's impossible that we can go from a badly mediocre team to a totally bad mediocre team, that at least played into the postseason once since Steph was here. Now we're at the bottom, but hey Stephon's only going to stay here to hinder our progress, so good riddens please.

Free Arsenal · 03-22-2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphadog

..and Marbury didn't...or wouldn't fit in it. It's just different than LBs. Don't forget...the Suns have mega talent and haven't won anything yet. Even Dallas has had to emphasize more defense to be able to compete against the top levels. Every great team has a system that they adhere to. No team is successful just turning guys loose to do their thing.

I also think LB has done a poor job but I don't know who could have done much better with this group of misfits. I take most exception with his lack of play for Lee but after seeing how Nate has improved by playing under LBs rules, and how Frye is rapidly becoming a more complete player, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt regarding Lee's playing time. He is trying to teach him a new position (and the reality IS that Lee prolly needs to be a sf to be a real factor in the league) and it's nearly imnpossible to implement it during the season. I suspect Lee will do everything Ariza did not do.....improve his handle and his shot(already better than Ariza's on both counts) and be in the running for starter's minutes next year. Even Curry is making baby strides while trying to play a different way. All the guys that are trying to play Larry's way ARE getting better. Hell, even Marbury was playing great before he got banged up....he just didn't like playing that way. I wouldn't be too hard on LB until he has players who are willing to play the right way. It might take a couple of years but Mike James and Harrington would be a great start

That's a very good point.

**Da Grinch** · 03-22-2006, 10:56 PM

Alpha ,

basketball isn't rocket science when you break it down to its basics.

the knicks stink on defense as they did last year and they are just as bad.

on offense the team has added offensive players that basically puts them on par with any in the league.

how many teams can really say they can have the weapons the knicks have.

marbury , crawford francis , curry, frye Qwoods, Qrich , butler mo taylor david lee, nate and jalen rose, the only guys on the roster who aren't good offensive players are malik rose and jerome james.

the ones who aren't ball handlers and pure scorers are just guys who convert baskets at a very high rate(lee is shooting .613 from the field and butler is at .523...why dont these guys get no real pt while malik rose and his .362 fg % keeps piling on the minutes)

i understand they cant defend ...even though thats supposed to be LB's forte but why cant they score?

the can shoot , (JC nate jalen qwoods and francis all shoot at least 37% from 3 point range as knicks with Qrich at an ok 35%....) they outrebound their opponents by 3 boards a game(4th in the league in rebounding margin) and with 13 off. rebounds a game they have to be among the league leaders in that regard.

and they can pass , outside of curry all the players are at least avg. passers and in rose, marbury, JC francis and nate they always have their share of guys who can pass to easy buckets and create high % shots ...

individually they can do all these things but 2gether they cant score if their life depended on it.

i understand Larry's a teacher , but his job is to win games not hold bi weekly basketball camps for professionals , and when he lucks into something that works (david lee starting and then a 6 game winning streak) , he goes away from it as soon as they lose a game. i dont see whats the lesson in that. He's not God faith in him is not blind nor should it be and when he does some of the screwy things he does it causes questions not just by us but by his team as well .

i hope when IT gets him his low post defender he finally gets to coaching and stops with these silly games.

alphadog · 03-23-2006, 05:16 AM

Its more rocket science than you think. If it was easy, every team would be good. Getting guys who do one thing or another well is fine, but molding them into a unit with one brain and one goal is very hard. Marbury is a perfect example. He is one of the best 1 on 1 players in the league but only plays d when he feels like it. He also has no real feel for running a team and getting players involved (either that, or he doesn't care to). NO coach has won with him as a lead guy, so do we blame LB? Not in my mind. Talent is easy to get.....unselfishness and players that play together and self-sacrifice are another. NY just doesn't have enough of these kind of guys. A different coach with a different approach may have won a few more games enabling more of the current cast to stick, but would that really be going in a positive direction? Again, I think not. IT made it his quest to secure talented but flawed players with the intent of be able to mold them into a team. Since most of these guys came with serious baggage or at least questions about the ability to be a good team mate, it was a significant (and poor, in my opinion) gamble. We are now required to rid ourselves of several players and try to reconstruct the team yet again...this time with the right kind of players. Don't expect to be contending next year....look for improvement and stability.

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