TwinkieFoot

It's been pretty clear that these two are going to form our backcourt this year. Many people seem shaky at best for several reasons. Love it or not, this is how it's going to be so we might as well find the negatives and solutions to them (in bold below the negatives) of it and figure out what else we need to make it work.

Negatives:

1.) Stephon Marbury stretchs out to about 6-2 and weighs 205 lbs. Steve Francis is a little above 6-3 and weighs 200 lbs. Together, they form a very small back-court, possibly one of the shortest in a league where guys are getting taller and taller at their respective positions. You got to worry about what they'll do on the other end of the floor at that height.



Hubie Brown said it best this year when he mentioned that playing effective defense in this league is all about being your man to his spot. Although both of these guys give up a clear height advantage at the two spot to the opponent, 9 out of 10 that that opponent doesn't have there foot speed. So essentially, we would not be losing much defensively on the perimeter as many think since we have an advantage of getting to these spots quicker than the defense. Although the threat remains that they could be shot over, you have to ask yourself how many people are pure jump shooters anymore. That's what they'd have to be in order to beat these guys because the lateral quickness and strength either Marbury or Francis has over the 2 guard, will prevent them from getting to close to the basket. Of course there going to get beat once in a while off the dribble but that is what help defense is for. Our defense sucks you say? That's what a zone was invented for. We see the best teams in the league now playing zone from time to time or a combination of zone and man defense in the same possession. I think that would help us pressure players better more now than these guys could individually.

2.) Since High School and perhaps even younger, both guys have been groomed to be players who need the ball to be effective. Considering both are guys that hold the ball longer than your average guard, can this work without someone not being satisfied? Considering neither player has had to shoot jumpers consistently throughout their career, you wonder how well they'd be doing so from time to time off the ball.



It's been said that the only major difference between a PG and SG is the fact that a PG brings the ball up. You look at today's league and I believe that's more true now than it has ever been with the dominant teams leading the pack. Regardless of what anyway thinks, we have potentially the most explosive back-court in years. More importantly both of these guys have agendas to prove since both have been labeled as "losers" and both have been shunned from all-star games despite being all-star talents. The only thing they need is someone to manipulate that motivation into conformity and doing what is best for the team.



Many can't see how this can work but at the same time because player has been asked in his career to do something like this. Due to there skillset, I believe both could work very well together because aside from them being explosive PG's they both operate in different ways. Marbury's a more natural PG and Francis is just a straight up scorer. Play Marbury on the ball in a half-court set and let Francis play the wing. By this happening, you have the defense initially focusing on Marbury, opening up the floor for a scorer like Francis who has proven to be pretty solid at finishing around the basket and drawing the foul. Of course you'd need to condition Francis to play off the ball but it can be done since he'll be recieving the ball in fimilar situations that he scores in. This means Marbury has to rely on his jump shot a bit if Francis passes out of pressure but Marbury has proven capable of knocking down those 15 ft jump shots since his days with Wilkins in NY. Essentially, the change isn't as radical as many think it may be.

3.) Ball Movement. Both guys operate as PG's by penetrating and then dishing once the help commits to find the open man. Will that stunt our ball movement with this style, times two?



Both Marbury and Francis have been through alot in there careers. I think there at a point in there career's where they play more with there head than with there skill. This whole perception that there selfish I think doesn't describe the players that we have now. Experiences have made the realize when not to force the action and when to. There games together still will primarily rely on penetrate and dish but we have an excellent scoring team that does so in several ways. The team will find ways to score within that system where they'd have much more spacing than without those two. Besides, Rich even pointed out earlier that most of the recent championship teams and successful ones are low on the assist numbers due to a lack of ball movement compared to the past. We'll be alright.

4.)Lack of heirarchy. Maybe if one was better than the other, there'd be less of a problem with chemistry since the less talented one would differ to the more talented. Unfortunately, both Marbury and Francis have both played on a high level (I like Marbury better), that are fairly similar stat wise. This might make it harder for one guy to sacrifice for the team than the other since he'd be wonder what does he not have that the other doesn't.



I mentioned this before that a coach could use the agenda's they have as motivation to make this work. I think more than ever, that both want to prove everyone wrong from the teams that have traded them, to the teammates that have tried to criticize them and the media which misinterrupts there skill. I believe both guys want to win, so they both might be willing to concede certain parts of there game to the other to change these perceptions.



....Your welcome to continue with any more negatives along this thread but these are the key ones I've heard so far. Maybe we could get a couple comments on them.

More importantly, I forgot to add that if we run, Francis and Marbury together becomes much more effective. Of the two, Francis is the only one that could rebound the ball. Everyone knows that you need people who rebound the ball in order to run. Having Francis at the two spot puts him in better position to do so and eliminates the need for that pass most running teams have to make from the rebounder to the ball handler. This speeds up the break for us and also puts Francis in fimilar situations where he has the ball and has to beat his man off the dribble. I also don't believe we're as poor a rebounding team as many believe. Our perimeter players rebound the ball very well (Richardson, Francis, Lee, Crawford, Robinson). Alot of those rebounds are of course long which is exactly what you need in the first place to spark a break. This is why we zone people out and force them to take these jumpers in the first place since the advantage is in our favor.

USSKittyHawk

Hey Twinkie, about time you got here, let me take the time to digest this post before I respond.

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TwinkieFoot

It's good to be here. In the mean time, I'd like to give a shout out to my friend TruKnickFan. What time is it TruKnickFan? Respond soon Purp.

USSKittyHawk

Twinkie, I'm sorry I don't see this back court working, hopefully I'm wrong but I just don't see it. Keyword that may hurt this back court: Attitude. Francis has one, and always will. He just seems disinterested and has never listen in the past even when he had great coaches in Rudy T and Van Gundy. I don't know how the rest of the board feels, but I think he is selfish and is nothing more than a chucker. There were times when I watched him with Houston and he would just dribble the ball while Yao was in the post waiting for the pass. He would wait until the last minute when the shot clock is about to expire, and ignore Yao to shoot a jumper. I'm not sold on Francis and Steph backcourt at all regardless if you make the adjustment offensively or not. Get him out of town.

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The Future7

I feel that Isiah and Marbury will be able to make this backcourt work. I'm sure Marbury and Francis are good friends and know each other well enough to make this a great backcourt. I think that everyone just has to want to make it work. With the way Isiah has been talking and showing confidence, I expect to see something special.

TwinkieFoot

Well Kitty, I think you can't deny the fact that Francis has been selfish with the ball throughout his career. I think alot of that is based on confidence and arrogance. He always see's a way that he can attack the basket and just holds onto the ball, waiting for the right moment. Unfortunately what comes out of that is the offense stagnating and a rushed shot by either him or a teammate because of the shot clock expiring. But where I see failure, I see room for improvement and I believe that in a different system where the ball handling duties aren't solely Francis you could eliminate these instances. Remember what I said earlier about Francis now being BEHIND the defense instead in front of it where the defense is concentrating on getting the ball out his hands. This means that he has his man basically one on one with only the fear of a big man rotating on defense 10ft or so from the basket. Francis has proven that he can get around guys WITH EASE on single coverage and finish around the basket WITH EASE usually being a leader in Free throws attempted in the past. We kept Francis on the weak side with that strategy in hand, and we have a basis under which both guys could work with having to worry about either overdribbling.

TwinkieFoot

As for the whole attitude thing, I think both guys regardless of their demeanor wants to win. Again, a guy who could play on those desires to win and prove people wrong could get these guys to work together. For the most part, Francis seems like a cool guy to be around off the court. Both he and Yao developed a close friendship and I have never heard of him having any problems with teammates. Winning is the cure all so that might squash any of personality clashes or complaining about playing time in the locker room.

alphaorange

But there is no way in Hell this backcourt will ever function well enough to win consistently. What I see is clearly the league's worst defensive backcourt with no reliable shooter to keep guys honest. Neither works well without the ball and since there is but one ball........There will be occassional highlites sandwiched around the Knick bigs doing "riverdance" trying to cut off all the penetration originating from the opposing guards.

TwinkieFoot

Well Alpha, back-courts in the past have had scenarios where both guys handle the ball yet managed to win consistently. The most recent would be the Miami Heat with a starting back-court of Jason Williams and Dwayne Wade together. We see the Mavericks looking to develop something very similar to what we have by signing Mike James to pair with Jason Terry. Again, it's a matter of defining each players role and putting them in situations not so foreign to what they once did but different enough to benefit the team. Complain all you want defensively but the speed factor that I mentioned will come in handy. I remember one game in particular where Brown played both Robinson and Marbury together for extended periods against the Bucks on December 30th. Marbury covered Michael Redd and effectively held one of the league's best shooters to 6-17 shooting. He did so by beating Redd to spots on the floor defensively, a speed advantage he does not have at the PG position. Francis is a better on ball defender at the PG spot than Marbury so it all works out well. More importantly, the use of a zone definately helps this back-court to work. As I said before, the league has very few jump shooters so I'd force them to beat us by shooting jumpers over those two. The end result are long rebounds to a cast of solid rebounders on the perimeter on our team that sparks a fast break.


P.S., thanks for the welcome

Truknicksfan

Hey Twinkiefoot, lol do I know you? Anyway I think the backcourt could work, but could work better with just Steph. I think Steph has maybe relized his time is ticking and that he needs to get his act together. Its just going to be hard to get rid of steve.

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TwinkieFoot

TruKnickFan-Lol, I guess we really don't know each other. I thought the nickname "Purp" might have meant something to you but I guess your a different person with the same screenname. Anyway, I don't believe there is anything wrong with Marbury's game. He keeps his turnovers low for a top PG which means he takes care of the ball and make solid decisions on the court, he's usually tops in points and assists every year and shoots the ball well.

I feel people want him to be something that he's not and that's a pure passer. People tend to compare him with Nash and Kidd but that can't be because he's a different kind of PG. His passing game is built through his offense, getting into the paint, drawing a double and then kicking out of the double for open shots for his teammates. You have to have the right personnel for that to work effectively but the same could be said about either Jason Kidd or Steve Nash. Kidd was known as a "one hit wonder" during his Suns days when he could not make it out of the first round. He goes to Jersey with a group of guys whose offensive game suits his passing ability and he becomes everything good about the game at 27/28. Steve Nash was hardly a guy that would be remembered in a decade before he went to the Suns. Now all of a sudden, he's the second coming and a 2 time MVP. All this means if that you need the right personnel (jump shooters) around Marbury to make this work.

Truknicksfan

Haha, "What time is it" meant something to me thats why I wasnt sure lol. Anyway, I feel starbury always gets too much blame for what goes on. Steve on the other hand I think we just dont need.

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TwinkieFoot

TruKnickFan, If you really are who I think you are then this is "the Voice."

Truknicksfan