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**USSKittyHawk** · 01-24-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

James Dolan still has not explained exactly what he means by "evident progress," that vague term the chairman of Madison Square Garden has used since last June when discussing Isiah Thomas' future employment.

Thomas will have reached the midway point of his make-or-break season. Regardless of the result, the Knicks will have a losing record after 41 games. But they do seem to be making progress.

Under Thomas, the Knicks clearly are better than last year's disastrous 23-win team and likely will exceed that victory total by 10. But is that good enough?

Thomas, now the Knicks' president/coach, set the bar high for himself by firing Hall of Fame coach Lenny Wilkens two years ago despite Wilkens' 40-41 record. And the team Wilkens inherited didn't have nearly the talent Thomas has at his disposal. Plus, the Eastern Conference was stronger two years ago.

Thomas should be held to the same standard. But that's where things get tricky. Larry Brown now becomes Thomas' strongest ally because Thomas is being judged against his predecessor.

Barring an unforeseen collapse and taking into account how smitten Dolan is with Thomas, once the Knicks crack 30 wins, Thomas is a lock to receive an extension. Some believe that Dolan already has made the decision to keep Thomas.

There are many reasons why the Knicks have enjoyed more success under Thomas. I'm just not buying the theory that it all comes down to better team chemistry. The Knicks opened 2006 with a six-game winning streak, beating Phoenix and Dallas along the way. Stephon Marbury had bought into Brown's system and was playing at a high level before suffering a left shoulder injury.

Marbury also sat out with a bum knee. From Jan.18 through the end of the season, the Knicks' best player missed 22 games and the team went 5-17 without him.

Chemistry had nothing to do with Eddy Curry showing up grossly out of shape and missing 10 games due to injury and illness. The Knicks went 3-7 without Curry. Is chemistry the reason why David Lee is so valuable to the Knicks or is it that he is stronger, better and a year wiser? Obviously if Thomas knew what to expect from Lee, he never would have given Jared Jeffries $30 million.

And it is impossible to measure how much easier it is for a coach to perform his duties when he has the full support of management. The mistrust between Thomas and Brown first surfaced in November 2005 and the situation deteriorated from there. Neither one handled himself well.

All that matters now is where Thomas takes the team from here. The Knicks, owners of the league's highest payroll, should be one of the top eight teams in the Eastern Conference. Right now you can rank them anywhere between third and sixth, with Detroit and a healthy Miami the only clubs that are head-and-shoulders above the rest.

Thomas' strength thus far is that his players give him effort every night. That is the least you should expect from millionaire ballplayers, but that is not always the case.

The jury is still out as to how far Thomas can take this group. With the Pacers, Thomas' teams never advanced out of the first round of the playoffs despite being the higher seed in two of the three series.

Defensively, his team still has a lot to prove. Yes, the Knicks shut down Gilbert Arenas on Wednesday, but they also gave up a go-ahead layup to Antawn Jamison with 20 seconds left, followed by Caron Butler's uncontested dunk with 2.2 seconds to play. That is something you rarely see. Who knows if the Knicks will ever be an above-average defensive team?

Perhaps the single greatest task facing Thomas is finding a bona fide superstar within the next two to three years. Think about what Ray Allen could do for the Knicks. Kevin Garnett is probably a pipe dream. But there must be someone out there who can take the Knicks deep into the playoffs and maybe even to a title.

Now that would be evident progress.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...p-412697c.html

Now do you believe Frank Isola?

**Truknicksfan** · 01-24-2007, 01:55 PM

If dolan has made his decision to keep thomas then he is dumber then I thought. As it stand there record is 18-25 and that is pretty bad. The only reason were not buried 6 feet under the ground is because how weak the divison is and the bottom of the east is.

**0oh_S0o_FreSh!!** · 01-24-2007, 08:30 PM

that is it for me. I have to admit i was impressed with the knicks gameplay even with the loss. every game we win or we lose, its totally suprising. You never can predict a game for the knicks, theyre so up and down, their players are the same, and the owner is too. Now we have Curry out, wgere 18-26, what progress can this team be headed too? we are going against the heat next, with shaq and wade back, and i just dont know what to expect or worry how many points the teams gonna get beat by. Now im hit with this news that jommy crack corn dolan is thinking of keeping that ****-eyed sona ***** isiah thomas and he thinks this is progress? WE dont even have our picks anymore. I frankly feel bad for the real talent on this team. Who the hell decided to let dolan take over this team? they should have some kinda civil service act to give jobs to people who really deserve it. I sure do hope its frank, how bout getting kiki vand. in here? we are such a mediocre team right now, and w eare standing on a peg of one leg, supported by crawford and our sophomore players.

If he gets an extension, dolan better quit, because all of the decisions he makes, just ends up in the bottom of the toilet like the bull**** this organization has been going through.

-I'm ****ing out. Peace.

TwinkieFoot · 01-25-2007, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Educated

that is it for me. I have to admit i was impressed with the knicks gameplay even with the loss. every game we win or we lose, its totally suprising. You never can predict a game for the knicks, theyre so up and down, their players are the same, and the owner is too. Now we have Curry out, wgere 18-26, what progress can this team be headed too? we are going against the heat next, with shaq and wade back, and i just dont know what to expect or worry how many points the teams gonna get beat by. Now im hit with this news that jommy crack corn dolan is thinking of keeping that ****-eyed sona ***** isiah thomas and he thinks this is progress? WE dont even have our picks anymore. I frankly feel bad for the real talent on this team. Who the hell decided to let dolan take over this team? they should have some kinda civil service act to give jobs to people who really deserve it. I sure do hope its frank, how bout getting kiki vand. in here? we are such a mediocre team right now, and w eare standing on a peg of one leg, supported by crawford and our sophomore players.

If he gets an extension, dolan better quit, because all of the decisions he makes, just ends up in the bottom of the toilet like the bull**** this organization has been going through.

-I'm ****ing out. Peace.

With Shaq and Wade, the Heat have not been that impressive so why are you writing off the Knicks? We just went toe to toe with one of the best teams in the league and lost by 5 with two key players out. The Heat are not nearly the team most make them out to be and I'm confident we can beat them if we come out and play right.

That kind of confidence wouldn't be there if we did not have a guy like Isiah Thomas who has assembled a pretty impressive young team. Honestly, we are in the midst of a rebuilding project and have managed to beat some of the better teams both last year and this year in the league. What about that could get you down? That in itself is a clear sign that this team is moving in a positive direction regardless of the little bumps in the road. Like I mentioned earlier, we are young so the inconsistency is to be expected when we underperform. The difference however between us and another stereotypical young and inconsistent team is that we have shown regard consistency of getting up and matching the upper-echlon teams in their play.

Honestly, some are just so arrogant that they refuse to change their opinion under any circumstances and either ignore the facts or ignore solid reasoning. How you could make a statement that we traded away our picks is beyond me. Over the course of 2 seasons, Isiah has managed to draft 5 first round draft picks. This upcoming year, we'll have another first round draft pick and possibly another one via trade. What about that suggests to you that Isiah is pawning away our future? What about the success and talent of guys like Channing Frye, David Lee, Nate Robinson, Renaldo Balkman and Mardy Collins suggests to you that Isiah has done a poor job as a talent evaluator?

Those are the facts. It's your business whether you choose to ignore them or not. We may not be a championship team in the next few years but we are making progress towards that by constantly getting younger and more talented. First thing is first, so let's set the standard to making the playoffs and progressively work our way up; it's not possible to get to the championships before growing through these processes. Championships aren't the only measure of success, so it's time to stop acting as though we have to have one as a sign of progress. I don't even understand how New Yorkers could be so spoiled when we haven't had a title in so many years as it is.

**Truknicksfan** · 01-25-2007, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Championships aren't the only measure of success, so it's time to stop acting as though we have to have one as a sign of progress. I don't even understand how New Yorkers could be so spoiled when we haven't had a title in so many years as it is.

Fine we wont look at rings to find sucess. Lets look at the win column....OOOO not much sucess there either.

I understand what your saying twinkie but the point of the matter is that New Yorkers want to see results. They dont have to be in rings but they do have to be in the win column. Not saying that I agree with how people look at it, but fact is fact, and New Yorkers are going to look at the win column when the seasons over.

TwinkieFoot · 01-25-2007, 09:37 AM

Just another thing that absolutely kills me to is how people recommend other GM's to replace Isiah who have done the same exact things during their tenure elsewhere but worse. A prime example of this would be Kiki Vandewegh.

I'll be the first to say that the Nuggets are a very impressive team so far. Prior to acquiring Iverson, was this team really a contender though? At any point and time, did anyone really even see them as players in the West down the road? I didn't.

They got very lucky in a very talented draft by having a selection good enough to pick Carmelo Anthony. Lucky for them, their selection was not higher because Kiki has gone on record stating he would have drafted Darko Milicic around the same time the "experts" were questioning whether Lebron should have even went ahead of Darko. One mistake like that and Kiki goes loses his job off of piss poor job performance. After all, this is the man that selected Nikolay Tskitishivili no.4 in the 2002 draft with Amare Stoudemire, Carlos Boozer, Caron Butler, Drew Gooden, the emerging Chris Wilcox, Tayshaun Prince and Nenad Krstic still on the board. Who can even forget him trading a very good first round pick to acquire the rights of superstar to be Omar Cook. Or how about him bringing in Rodney White for several million dollars only to have him be a guy that sits on the bench? How about him bringing in Kenyon Martin for a multi-year multi-million contract, worthy of a superstar, that has put the Nuggets in a financial bind for quite some time?

You see what I mean? The grass is always greener on the other side for people. Kiki has done a far worse job than Isiah Thomas. The only difference between Kiki is that he didn't have to deal with the pressure of being in New York nor had to deal with how badly a sabatoged team the Knicks were that Isiah inherited. Leave Isiah alone because he is doing his job and doing it well.

TwinkieFoot · 01-25-2007, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Truknicksfan

Fine we wont look at rings to find sucess. Lets look at the win column....OOOO not much sucess there either.

I understand what your saying twinkie but the point of the matter is that New Yorkers want to see results. They dont have to be in rings but they do have to be in the win column. Not saying that I agree with how people look at it, but fact is fact, and New Yorkers are going to look at the win column when the seasons over.

But you see, even a guy like you would come on here and say "stats don't tell the entire story." The funny thing is though that those same people rely on win and loss column's to be the start-all, end-all regarding a team. That is farthest from the truth and have been trying to make that point clear. Just as stats don't record the intangibles an individual player brings that ultimately affects the outcome of a game, does your record. A record does not make note of whether your team had key injuries for the year or anything regarding a coaching change, team youth, etc. that all effect a team. It does not take into account how good a team will perform against another one, whether your players are getting better on a younger team, or how close your team may be from winning consistently, etc.

For instance, I've thought that the Clippers were a solid group of players and needed one more piece to win and win big. One would look at a record and say that they are far away from being anything close to a good team. The next year they add Sam Cassell and they not only make the playoffs but go to the 2nd round and play deep into the 2nd round before being eliminated. This is why I'm just amazed by the fact that most would say the Knicks record suggests they are far away from doing anything big when that does very little to suggest how good what you already have is. If you ask me, what we already have is pretty damn good and is a piece away from winning like the Clippers. The key here is the direction we choose to go. Do we go with another proven veteran just to win at the expense of our youth or do we go young like with a guy like Randy Foye who I believe will be a star? In either case, one of those pieces can and would make the difference for us.

**Da Grinch** · 01-25-2007, 10:13 AM

I think it migh be helpful if people actually got to compare his tenure to other GM's and they would see , Zeke unlike most GM's is getting a raw deal.

http://www.n-c-systems.com/hoops/Sea...&submit=Search

feel free to search around this site for the moves of other GM's and you will see no matter who it is there are hits and misses, the amount of garbage Zeke gets for moves pretty much on par with any other GM .

and maybe will see I'm not some I.Thomas apologist , I'm just a realist.

**USSKittyHawk** · 01-25-2007, 11:46 AM

I must take the time to give Grinch props, because he has stuck by Isiah through thick and thin. Even though I still think Isiah is actually Grinch on this message board. LOL

**Da Grinch** · 01-25-2007, 03:33 PM

ok Kitty I'll prove how meritless all the assertions against Zeke really are by lsting some of the mistakes of his atlantic division rivals during Zeke's time as GM.

raptors
1.drafted Rafael Arajao 8th overall (the 76ers drafted Iguodala with the next pick)
2.Gave rafer alston a 6 year 29 mil. deal.
3. traded Vince carter for Zo Mourning (who never played for them ) Aaron williams eric williams and 2 picks that became renaldo balkman and joey graham
4.traded jalen rose and the pick that is now balkman for antonio davis.
5.drafted Joey graham when granger , gerald green, david lee, nate robinson, monta ellis and jarret jack were still available.

Celts
1.traded the rights to foye , Lafrentz & dan dickau for sebatian telfair
2.traded chris mills and mike james for lindsay hunter, chucky atkins and a 1st round pick
3.drafted al jefferson(leaving Gerald green , dorrell wright & JR smith
) delonte west & tony allen, (leaving kevin martin and trevor ariza and chris duhon on the board.)
4.traded antione walker for Qyntel Woods, Curtis Borchardt, rights to Albert Miralles, 2006 second round pick (from Heat) (#56-Edin Bavcic), 2007 or 2008 conditional second round pick (from Heat) (?-?), cash
5.signed brian scalibrine to a 5 yr. contract

76ers
1.signed willie greene to a 6 year 29 million deal.
2.traded Iverson for andre miller, joe smith a nuggets 1st round pick and a mavericks 1st rounder
3.aquired chris webber for corliss williamson kenny thomas and brian skinner
4.hired larry brown in a management capcity
5.traded Glenn robinson for jamal mashburn and rodney rodgers

nets
1. Fired Byron scott, off of 2 finals apperances and haven't been past the 2nd round since.
2.drafted antione wright
3.signed jeff mcinnis
4. drafted victor kryapa instead of kevin martin or ariza
5.signed eric williams to 3 yr. 12 mil deal.

**0oh_S0o_FreSh!!** · 01-25-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinkieFoot

With Shaq and Wade, the Heat have not been that impressive so why are you writing off the Knicks? We just went toe to toe with one of the best teams in the league and lost by 5 with two key players out. The Heat are not nearly the team most make them out to be and I'm confident we can beat them if we come out and play right.

That kind of confidence wouldn't be there if we did not have a guy like Isiah Thomas who has assembled a pretty impressive young team. Honestly, we are in the midst of a rebuilding project and have managed to beat some of the better teams both last year and this year in the league. What about that could get you down? That in itself is a clear sign that this team is moving in a positive direction regardless of the little bumps in the road. Like I mentioned earlier, we are young so the inconsistency is to be expected when we underperform. The difference however between us and another stereotypical young and inconsistent team is that we have shown regard consistency of getting up and matching the upper-echlon teams in their play.

Honestly, some are just so arrogant that they refuse to change their opinion under any circumstances and either ignore the facts or ignore solid reasoning. How you could make a statement that we traded away our picks is beyond me. Over the course of 2 seasons, Isiah has managed to draft 5 first round draft picks. This upcoming year, we'll have another first round draft pick and possibly another one via trade. What about that suggests to you that Isiah is pawning away our future? What about the success and talent of guys like Channing Frye, David Lee, Nate Robinson, Renaldo Balkman and Mardy Collins suggests to you that Isiah has done a poor job as a talent evaluator?

Those are the facts. It's your business whether you choose to ignore them or not. We may not be a championship team in the next few years but we are making progress towards that by constantly getting younger and more talented. First thing is first, so let's set the standard to making the playoffs and progressively work our way up; it's not possible to get to the championships before growing through these processes. Championships aren't the only measure of success, so it's time to stop acting as though we have to have one as a sign of progress. I don't even understand how New Yorkers could be so spoiled when we haven't had a title in so many years as it is.

Thats the problem with the knicks. They are unpredictable. they can lose to the ****tiest teams, but yet they can play hard against good teams or get flat out killed by them. I want to go into a game knowing that positive things are going to happen. Sure isiah did a godo job gettign these players. but at what cost? 112 million in debt for the knicks, for average players, and our seats in the garden havent even been filled. Truth is, the rookies are mroe dependable than the starters which is pretty sad. I think i speak for many when i say that although we are headed into a right direction, how long is the [b]path[/B we take? im not gonna wait 4-5 years just for a team to improve or make the playoffs. we have to start making change and i dont think isiah is trying to do that. he gave our pick away, and if we were in a rebuildign process, we'd be trying to keep most of our pciks as possile. Truth is, isiah does not know what hes doing right now, and dolan doesnt realize that.

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