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TwinkieFoot · 06-07-2007, 12:14 PM

At one point during last season, I felt that Steve Francis could be a very productive player on our team. Isiah Thomas appears to have chosen a different offensive scheme than I thought he would have had with 2 dynamic perimeter scorers, Stephon Marbury and Steve. I don't really think Steve can be a productive player anymore with Marbury still on the team and vice versa. One should be moved and at this point, I'm going to stick with Marbury. So what should we do with Francis?

I still believe that unless we got a shot at Kobe (and in turn have to bring in players to compliment him and Curry) that we should just look to make minor changes. Personally, I believe that the Hawks would have an interest in Francis and could offer us an upgrade that won't rock the offseason acquisition list but would help us none the less.

Knicks Trade (to Hawks):
Steve Francis...PG
Nate Robinson...G

Knicks Recieve (from Hawks):
Speedy Claxton...PG
Josh Childress...SF
Anthony Johnson...PG

...The salaries come surprisingly close to one another but the deal actually saves us some money. We'd ship out about $17.7 million and recieve $13.8 million. I think the Hawks make the deal because it's a low cost move with the potential for a big reward. Many feel that the Hawks need a passer at the PG position but I believe that because of Joe Johnson's ability to handle and distribute the ball that it would be possible to have another combo guard next to him. Francis is that guard and considering how well he performed when healthy, the Hawks should give the tandem a shot considering how effective Francis is as a scorer. If Francis backfires, they only have to deal with his contract for another more year and would still have another combo PG to play at that position that might be able to get the job done.

The Knicks do it because the move frees them immediately of a burdesome contract in exchange for a multi-faceted 3 and two lesser contracts that could be moved.

Knicks Trade (to the Suns):
$3.9 million trade exception
Jared Jefferies...F
Anthony Johnson...PG
future 2nd round draft pick

Knicks Recieve (from the Suns):
Boris Diaw...F
Marcus Banks...PG
24th pick
29th pick

I know that the Suns get fleeced from a talent point in this trade but trades are made for more reasons than just talent. It was reported not to long ago that the Suns owner, Robert Sarver, issued a mandate to trade $8 million worth of contracts off the team to be below the luxury tax. Although he later denied there was a mandate, he did mention that the team would be more "financially prudent" in the future. This would be a drastic move, but it gets the job done. We'd effectively send them $7.9 million in contracts in exchange for $12.8 million roughly. That's a $4.9 million difference and when you factor in how much each of the draft picks would cost, it would bring the total up to about $6 million they'd save. You factor in the fact that Johnson's $2.9 million contract could easily be moved to a team looking for a veteran PG, they very well could save the full $8 million and in the process KEEP SHAWN MARION AND THE SUNS CORE TOGETHER FOR ANOTHER TITLE RUN.

Boris Diaw is a very good player but hardly relevant with Amare back on the team. He averaged just 9.7rpg, 4.3rpg and 4.8apg with 31mpg this season. In the playoffs his minutes dropped along with his averages to 23mpg. Marcus Banks throughout the entire year figures to be a nonfactor but a very costly one. Essentially, they'd be moving two contracts in exchange for cap relief and Jared Jefferies who could add some defense to that team. Jefferies also offers the versatility that Diaw does but does so on the defensive end of the floor rather than the offensive. I think he can fit, which makes the deal work.

Knicks Trade (to the Bobcats):
Boris Diaw...F/C
23rd pick
24th pick

Knicks Recieve (from Bobcats):
8th pick

The Bobcats need talented players. They also need people who can fill a shallow roster. Considering how thing their backcourt is, they could benefit alot from the projected late first round perimeter players that are in this draft. This makes the 23rd and 24th in addition to their 22nd very valuable to them.

We do the deal because we get a lottery pick. Maybe we could draft a guy like Thaddeus Young who has a nice upside but will take some time before he develops. This way, we could stick him at the end our bench and potentially get a game changer in the process.

urwhatueati8god · 06-07-2007, 12:27 PM

Outside of the fact that this doesn't even work under the C.B.A., this is a terrible trade for all parties involved other than the Knicks.

TwinkieFoot · 06-07-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by urwhatueati8god

Outside of the fact that this doesn't even work under the C.B.A., this is a terrible trade for all parties involved other than the Knicks.

There are like 3 trades that stem all from Francis being moved. Remind me again what trade your referring to? If your referring to the original Francis deal, it works under the CBA because the Hawks are below the cap and therefore can take on more salary than they send out. Why is it such a bad trade?

Zuca · 06-07-2007, 12:47 PM

I'd do a three team trade:

NY send Francis, a future 2nd rounder and Malik Rose to Portland, and Jerome James to GS;
GS send Al Harrington to Portland and Adonal Foyle to NY;
Portland send Raef Lafrentz and Darius Miles to NY and Zach Randolph to GS;

Why?

NY get in Lafrentz a nice backup shooting PF/C, that can be productive coming off the bench, his offensive game compliments Adonal Foyle lack of offense.
Adonal, for the other side, bring the passion and defensive game off the bench, he is what Isiah expected from JJ...
Miles is a talented player, who knows what Isiah can do with his game? He can be a good surprise.

GS: Zach is a big improvement over Al Harrington, especially in offense. My guess is that Nelson would love to have him in this team...
As for JJ, he would be more used than Adonal actually, since he have a better offensive game than Adonal.

Portland: After all, everybody knows that Francis is a talented player. May be a good fit with Roy, since Roy also like to pass the ball, one can compliment the other one skills. And Nate is a disciplinary coach that MAY put him in his place...
Malik Rose replaces Lafrentz in Portland bench, bringing good defense, but more than this, bringing experience, good character and leadership off the bench to this young team...
As for Al Harrington, Portland frontcourt tandem will be Oden/Aldridge, or even Aldridge/Durant, so Zach won't be starting (at least I doubt)... Al Harrington is cheaper than Zach, and can also play SF in a big lineup...

Oden
Aldridge
Harrington
Roy
Francis (or Sergio)

And then, Portland can swap Jack and Dickau to Atlanta for Childress and Salim Stoudamire (or a resigned Royal Ivey)

TwinkieFoot · 06-07-2007, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuca

I'd do a three team trade:

NY send Francis, a future 2nd rounder and Malik Rose to Portland, and Jerome James to GS;
GS send Al Harrington to Portland and Adonal Foyle to NY;
Portland send Raef Lafrentz and Darius Miles to NY and Zach Randolph to GS;

Why?

NY get in Lafrentz a nice backup shooting PF/C, that can be productive coming off the bench, his offensive game compliments Adonal Foyle lack of offense.
Adonal, for the other side, bring the passion and defensive game off the bench, he is what Isiah expected from JJ...
Miles is a talented player, who knows what Isiah can do with his game? He can be a good surprise.

GS: Zach is a big improvement over Al Harrington, especially in offense. My guess is that Nelson would love to have him in this team...
As for JJ, he would be more used than Adonal actually, since he have a better offensive game than Adonal.

Portland: After all, everybody knows that Francis is a talented player. May be a good fit with Roy, since Roy also like to pass the ball, one can compliment the other one skills. And Nate is a disciplinary coach that MAY put him in his place...
Malik Rose replaces Lafrentz in Portland bench, bringing good defense, but more than this, bringing experience, good character and leadership off the bench to this young team...
As for Al Harrington, Portland frontcourt tandem will be Oden/Aldridge, or even Aldridge/Durant, so Zach won't be starting (at least I doubt)... Al Harrington is cheaper than Zach, and can also play SF in a big lineup...

Oden
Aldridge
Harrington
Roy
Francis (or Sergio)

And then, Portland can swap Jack and Dickau to Atlanta for Childress and Salim Stoudamire (or a resigned Royal Ivey)

Personally, I don't want to move Malik Rose because I believe he offers alot of wisdom to a very young cast of players. I also believe he happens to be the best backup center we actually have on the team (without knowing what Randolph Morris can really do). Raef LaFrentz is a guy I'd like to add but only at the expense of a bad contract and not having to take on any more bad contracts in the process; same as Adonal Foyle. Darius Miles in my opinion qualifies as that bad contract and despite him having all the upside in the world, he's a dangerous player to trade for because his injury history is spotty and has shown bad habits since signing that big contract of his. I don't know if he's worth the risk because those kinds of risk should only be taken if your in a position to really win and wing big.

Zuca · 06-07-2007, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinkieFoot

Personally, I don't want to move Malik Rose because I believe he offers alot of wisdom to a very young cast of players. I also believe he happens to be the best backup center we actually have on the team (without knowing what Randolph Morris can really do).

Adonal Foyle surely can replace at least in a big part, both the experience, knowledge and leadership, while he already will be the best backup C, and better, while being a TRUE CENTER, while Malik isn't a true C...!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinkieFoot

Raef LaFrentz is a guy I'd like to add but only at the expense of a bad contract and not having to take on any more bad contracts in the process; same as Adonal Foyle.

Lafrentz = cheaper than Francis (close to 10 millions in savings), same number of years than him.
Foyle = more expensive in a year/base than Jerome, but will be an useful player. And his last year is a team option, which makes his additional cost (comparing with Jerome) a lot lesser (if NY use their team option and waive his last year, the salary difference will be just 3 to 4 millions)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwinkieFoot

Darius Miles in my opinion qualifies as that bad contract and despite him having all the upside in the world, he's a dangerous player to trade for because his injury history is spotty and has shown bad habits since signing that big contract of his. I don't know if he's worth the risk because those kinds of risk should only be taken if your in a position to really win and wing big.

Miles salary difference with Malik Rose is close to 12 millions (and one additional year in his contract), but you have to think that the real salary difference in the trade (counting the whole players and his contracts) will be just something in order of 6 to 7 millions...

As for Miles character and injury risks, even if he doesn't pans out, it won't be much of a big deal, because you already have an useless player in Jerome James... And your team would be rid of JJ in this move.

So, my guess is that swapping a disgruntled talented player in Francis, Malik is a good veteran leader but he barely get on the floor, and a sure mistake signing in Jerome James for two players that can be really useful for this team which are Foyle and Raef and a big risk, big reward player in Miles.

Sorry if I wrote something wrong, I'm not perfect in english language...!

alphaorange · 06-07-2007, 07:14 PM

He has nothing we need. Foyle will get very little time....certainly not enough to warrant his ugly contract. That would also necessitate moving JJ. Rose does not play center except under special circumstances. Raf is redundant to Frye except Frye has a much higher ceiling. All in all, the trade makes NO sense at all

**knicksfan** · 06-07-2007, 07:16 PM

I like those deals.

Zuca · 06-08-2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphaorange

He has nothing we need. Foyle will get very little time....certainly not enough to warrant his ugly contract. That would also necessitate moving JJ. Rose does not play center except under special circumstances. Raef is redundant to Frye except Frye has a much higher ceiling. All in all, the trade makes NO sense at all

Well, remember that Francis isn't needed also. The best thing would be swapping Francis for some shooting SF, like Wally Szczerbiak, but I can't see Boston agreeing to take on Francis... Perhaps Miami in a three-team swap... Who knows?

As for Jared Jeffries, I would try to include him in an Artest trade...

Jared/Nate/2nd rounder for Artest.

And I would try to deal Frye to Atlanta for Shelden Williams and a 2nd rounder.

**OneBadLT123** · 06-08-2007, 09:15 AM

Francis buyout, and he can come to Houston for the minimum. Would be a great asset to have off the bench. I have been one of the very few posters on the Houston board in support of this. I can see how it could benefit both teams.

TwinkieFoot · 06-08-2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphaorange

He has nothing we need. Foyle will get very little time....certainly not enough to warrant his ugly contract. That would also necessitate moving JJ. Rose does not play center except under special circumstances. Raf is redundant to Frye except Frye has a much higher ceiling. All in all, the trade makes NO sense at all

I don't like the idea of adding Miles if we have to give up any valuable commodities because of his health, attitude and contract but I definately would not say that he has nothing we need. He's a multi-faceted SF that plays some of the better defense in the league at his position, can handle the ball, can score with his back to the basket and can pass the ball. The only thing he does not really give us that we're missing is a jump shot.

Foyle would get very little time but he's a better option than Jerome James and shows actual hustle on the floor without the foolish play. Foyle is also a better fit for us because his contract is actually shorter than James despite it costing much more.

Rose played some center for the Spurs back in the day when they had Robinson. When they'd substitute David, Rose would come in at the 5 spot next to Tim Duncan and cover the opposing teams best post player who at that time was mostly a center. In today's league, I feel he can definately do the same thing considering he's a step slower but notably stronger. He is the best option for us as a backup center because he has the instinct and smarts to rotate quickly and effectively. Although he would not provide a shot blocker, the speed at which he can help could still have an impact on the defensive end and allow us to trap. That's what defense is anyway, beating your man to his position and Rose does that effectively while rebounding the ball despite his height.

Considering how high you have been on Channing Frye, would it hurt to have another one on the team? While we all obviously know Raef is not going to get any better, he would provide a serviceable role player on our team that can create an efficient big man rotation. His knowledge as a mobile, jump shooting PF is especially valuable to us considering the fact Channing Frye is in the same mold. Remember, Raef was a pretty effective help defender and shot blocker, two things Frye could learn how to master from him.

Zuca's trades make sense but they're going to cost us some money I wouldn't want to necessarily invest in.

TwinkieFoot · 06-08-2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuca

Adonal Foyle surely can replace at least in a big part, both the experience, knowledge and leadership, while he already will be the best backup C, and better, while being a TRUE CENTER, while Malik isn't a true C...!

Lafrentz = cheaper than Francis (close to 10 millions in savings), same number of years than him.
Foyle = more expensive in a year/base than Jerome, but will be an useful player. And his last year is a team option, which makes his additional cost (comparing with Jerome) a lot lesser (if NY use their team option and waive his last year, the salary difference will be just 3 to 4 millions)...

Miles salary difference with Malik Rose is close to 12 millions (and one additional year in his contract), but you have to think that the real salary difference in the trade (counting the whole players and his contracts) will be just something in order of 6 to 7 millions...

As for Miles character and injury risks, even if he doesn't pans out, it won't be much of a big deal, because you already have an useless player in Jerome James... And your team would be rid of JJ in this move.

So, my guess is that swapping a disgruntled talented player in Francis, Malik is a good veteran leader but he barely get on the floor, and a sure mistake signing in Jerome James for two players that can be really useful for this team which are Foyle and Raef and a big risk, big reward player in Miles.

Sorry if I wrote something wrong, I'm not perfect in english language...!

Trust me, you have nothing to worry about when it concerns your English. It's much better than what most English speakers can do. I like your trades from a talent standpoint. Each of the players you mentioned acquiring are players that I like. Foyle I believe is a huge upgrade over James and could effectively fill in the backup 5 spot; even better than Malik Rose can in my opinion. Raef LaFrentz is another guy whose game I loved and I feel can be a positive influence on the court and with guys like Channing Frye whose game is very similar. Both contracts in exchange for the players you mentioned actually save us money in the long run despite hurting us immediately financially (which I can stand). The only snag in the deal for me is Darius Miles because his contract supercedes any contrat we're sending out. I liked Miles before he became a Blazer and all these issues surrounding his character, health, and contract came out. I just think he is to big a gamble for too long. While guys like Jerome hardly play, they also don't cause a ruckus about it and have never been accussed of hurting team chemistry. Miles has.

P.S., despite Malik Rose not getting very many minutes with this team, I think his purpose extends beyond playing time. He's a leader and apparently a calming influence in the locker room. I noticed during the course of the season that despite him not getting very much playing time, he often was interviewed by reporters for his opinion which I believe is a testament to what he does for our team emotionally speaking. He has tons of experience in this league whether it be winning in the regular or postseasons, which can mean alot down the road once we find the pieces to the puzzle. He could be something of our Eric Snow who has helped prepare the Cavs for their recent success. All of this and not to mention the fact that Malik is a nice guy and a professional which is contagious.

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