knickstorm

Marbury gets all those assists because he dominates the ball so much. If you're trying to equate assists with sharing, would you say Allen Iverson is more of a team player and distributor than lets say jamal tinsley or brevin knight cause he averages more assists??? course not. You bring up Chauncey and Baron and successful seasons??? Detroit hardly had a very successful season (havent really had one since Brown left), single handedly being beaten vs Cleveland. Golden State snuck into the playoffs and got hot at the right time. But be that as it may, you should also check out how many shots marbury jacks up when he gets those assists. I want to see him get more assists without taking as many shots. Cause if you dominate the ball so much, you're going to get the assists cause obviously you cant shoot it every time down the floor. SO let's take a look. Baron in an uptempo, jack up shots asap offense average 2.02 shots per assist. Chauncey average 1.6 shots per assist, where's marbury at? 2.3 shots per assist. So look at that, for every assist that he has to have, he has to take basically an extra shot compared to chauncey.

The Lakers 3peat, had a bunch of veterans, grant, harper, shaw. kobe was still a kid basically for at least the first 2 of those titles and he respected the vets. YOu never saw him yell at brian shaw like he does Luke Walton do you?? SUppose the rumors were true, the lakers had the talent to overcome it, and the knicks obviously dont. Yes the airness was cocky but his teammates saw how hard he worked and wanted to play hard for him. YOu can't tell me channing frye is going "ohh man look at how hard steph is going at it, i gotta give it my all" If you're not well liked well you better be an all time great, or inspire people and stephon does neither. Winning is not the main agenda, for players with egos, its winning and being the man that brings home the win is the main agenda.

Last point on dirk, if he's just a shooter, how does he get 20+ ft attempts multiple times in a series?

TwinkieFoot

Assists don't tell the whole story but I think they are much more relevant than even you give them credit for. The method you use to open up your teammates should be irrelevant to everything except how effective it is. Considering Marbury had been considered one of the best through this measurement, I think we should give him his just due. Just because your a ball mover does not necessarily mean that your somehow doing the right thing. On multiple occassions this year, I saw Diaw pretty much get into the lane and look to pass rather than shoot. Although he may have been "unselfish" in doing so, it did not mean he was doing what was best for the team since he would have the higher percentage shot.

As far as Dirk, I'm hardly making broad statements. Like I said, you can look in at his individual games and see he disappears at crucial points badly. I admit he's improved his rebounding but him just staying on the floor as long as he does, helps jack up those numbers to make them look more impressive than they really are. As I said before, his game does not extend much beyond jump shooting. He has the ability to drive once in a while depending on the teams they are playing. He can not do so consistently and is why the Warriors absolutely wrecked him in the playoffs. Although smaller, the quicker and athletic defenders the Warriors threw at him took away his ability to drive. If your really a big star, teams should not be able to take away your strength. In addition to that, double teams on him are no excuse. Guess what, are suppose to get double teamed and is why they are stars in the first place.

TwinkieFoot

Iverson averages more assist by virtue of playing more minutes than Tinsley or a Brevin Knight. I don't know how much of a ball hog Iverson could really be when he's managed to coexist with Carmelo Anthony so well who is no doubt a franchise caliber player.

As for Billups, I don't know how him winning a title and helping to maintain one of the best regular season and playoff records over the last 5 years is somehow not preceived as being successful in your book. I think your living in a fantasy world or ignoring the facts to prove a point. Billups was and still is one of the most influential basketball players in this game and is projected to be the most sought after free agent this offseason. I don't think that is coincidential.

I think your also completely off base trying to devalue Baron Davis' play by making an excuse that the Warriors snuck into the playoffs. They won a ridiculous amount of games along the lines of 18 out of 21 or something like that to get to where they were. Those kind of streaks just don't happen as a fluke and certainly don't come easy being in the Western Conference. Davis was easily one of the top 3 best performers in the playoffs this year and there is nothing you can say to take away from that.

As for the whole Marbury issue you raised, I don't see how Marbury taking shots somehow benefits his assist numbers. Your going to have to explain that one to me. I doubt you'd call Dwayne Wade a chuck yet when he was a PG, his shot to assist numbers were not much better than any of those guys. You also obviously have not been paying attention to Marbury very much this season because he was easily putting the ball in his teammates hands moreso than ever before.

LOL, I also just have to chuckle to myself when you attempt to paint a peachy picture of Kobe's relationship with the other Lakers during their 3 peat. The guy almost got into a physical fight with Shaq once, who last time I checked was a veteran at the time. I also recall a report saying how Derek Fisher and several of the Laker players had to have a sit down with Kobe regarding his behavior that basically encouraged Kobe to change his ways because they all understood and respected his talent. He obviously was not one of the most liked teammates but helped get the job done and play a major role in their success. If you somehow believe that Kobe basically sat down on the sidelines as a wide eyed rookie and allowed the veterans to control the flow of the game during that 3peat, I suggest you go and watch some game footage. I could recall two distinct instances during their 2001 title run and 2002 title run where Kobe played a critical role in several games against the Spurs and Sixers when Shaq was either hurt, in foul trouble or just not riding a hot streak.

I also think you should rethink your insinuations that Marbury is not a hard worker. You don't come out chieseled like that, stay as healthy as he has during his career, and log as many minutes as he has without putting time in the gym. You also don't put up the kind of numbers Marbury has from not working your *** off.

P.S., Dirk got to the line as much as he did during those games you are referring to because he's a 7 ft jump shooter. How the hell do you contest that? Factor in the fact that stars generally get calls and you can have an explanation of how he had approached that kind of stat. Let's not also forget that the guy is a pretty good offensive player. My complaint about him is his propensity to disappear big time during certain games and his relatively one-dimensional play that people seem to overlook. He obviously isn't much more than a jump shooter because he only can get to the rim against certain teams while other teams like the Warriors effectively render him a jump shooter because of their athleticism.

alphaorange

He has been a good rebounder for years. Of course he can't succeed against everyone...no player can, except for maybe MJ. Everyone else has situations that make them struggle. It's the norm. Trying to discredit him only makes you look small. LJ disappeared and struggled at times in the playoffs.....is he a choker? Is Duncan? He had a clinker. Certainly Ewing had plenty. You're just simply wrong. A guy with a game like Dirks is easier to defend in crucial situations because he is not a creator, nor a low post player. A smart guy like you should know that.

knickstorm

I aint say AI is a ball hog. I just said he isnt a distributor or someone that gets everyone involved just because he has high assist #'s. It was obvious steve blake facilitated much of the offense when he was traded over.

I aint saying billups is garbage, i'm just saying this past season cant be considered "very successful" by detroit's standarda and in any case i think he's superior to marbury while you seem to think they're on par with each otehr. The warrior won a ridiculous amount of games? they won 42, which is 1 game above .500 since when is that considered winning a ridiculous amount of games.

18 of 21???? gimem break, you never bring facts and when you try, it's bogus lies. They won 9 out of 10 or 11 once to end the season and that's how they snuck in the playoffs. They got hot at the right time and beat the clippers out by a game. Not a fluke?? so what the heck happened vs the jazz? were the jazz superior to dallas?? nope, they just came back down to earth.

I aint trying to take anything away from Baron, I rank him above marbury too. I"m saying even when Baron goes crazy scoring, he still manages to get more assists per shot than starbury.

I can watch all the games i want but the stats dont lie. And did you just put stephon marbury and dwayne wade on the same level?? gimme a break man, dwayne wade was never a PG. Where did you come up with that silly idea. Just cause they passed him the ball on the top of the key and call for him to go 1 on 1 doesnt mean he played point. So i guess when dwayne was the PG, jason williams was playing the 2 or 3 right?? Bottom line is look at the #'s, for every time he passes it, he has to take more shots, which means less team involvment and when other people don't touch the ball they don't play as well. A team's much happier when everyone touches the ball.

MAybe you should stop chuckling and pay more attention in english class. where did i say it was peachy?? Reports? yea that mr loyal phil jackson snitching on Kobe to sell a book. I never said kobe was a wide eye rookie who was a marginal player in the championship run. You gotta read your NY TImes to get that reading comprehension up or something. I just said he was younger than the vets so he wasn't as outwardly vocal as he is today when he's older and more experienced than his teammates. WHen i said kid i didnt mean he played like one. I just meant he wasnt an eleder statesmen on the team. WInning cures everything, and you never heard of a shaq kobe squabble till they lost to detroit. TOo bad the knicks arent winning in the first place.

Man you're just making stuff up to argue. I didnt say marbury isnt a hard worker. I simply said Jordan's competetive fire and work ethic inspired his teammates, and marbury, however hard he works, plays does not inspire his teammates. People dont wanna play for him. The insinuation is that he doesnt inspire/motivate his teammates or make them better.

As for Dirk, what propensity are you talking about. Everyone has bad games, i outlined the 2006 playoffs where he basically showed up big time every single game. So he had a bad series, where is this propensity you talk about??? Jump shooters (regardless of how tall they are) dont get to the line just shooting J's. YOu telling me they couldnt contest DIrk's jumpers so they just kept hacking him as he took 15-20 footers? come on now, they hacked him going to the basket.
He was going to the basket like a madman vs the Spurs in '06, you trying to tell me he he could do it vs the SPurs Defense but not the Warriors?? Dallas had a bad series, it happens. Just cause it happened once doesnt make it the norm.

TwinkieFoot

Before we even discuss this, I'll need you to first remove yourself from MJ's balls. Once you've done that we can get into this little debate about how success really should be determined. I understand players can not always play to their best ability night in and night out. I won't even argue the fact that Dirk is a pretty good player. What anger's me most about the situation is that people tend to overhype him.

I recall almost the same situation a few years ago with Peja Stojackovic, when you had douche-bag after douche-bag line up and swear that he was a MVP caliber player; in fact, most thought he was a more crucial player than Chris Webber. I remember arrogant people like yourself would tell me I'm wrong and how Hedo Turkglu was an even better player. Sure enough as time wore on, the truth was revealed that Peja was nothing more than a one-dimensional player who was one of the best at only that dimension. Dirk in a way follows the same pattern because his entire game is based off his jump shot. When that's not falling, he really does not have much to turn to. Yet, when a guy like Eddy Curry entires the discussion who is cut from the same mold of not having any other intangible assets in the game, he's nothing more than a "decent" or "solid" player. I don't know whether it's because some of you are still on that European craze that has apparently passed or fixed on the concept of the next "Great White Hope" but Dirk simply is not what you make him out to be. In all honesty, I don't think he is even one of the best European's in the league right now.

You could claim all you want that players are entitled to bad games, which they are, but you seldom see a guy like Garnett become irrelevant in a game. You seldom see Kobe become irrelevant in a game. You seldom see Steve Nash become irrelevant in a game. You seldom see LBJ become irrelevant in a game, even in the Spurs series considering they were tripling him. I think gets by on a pass far to often and I do not understand the reason why.

TwinkieFoot

The point about Iverson was that the method through which he gives his teammates looks, should be merited on something more than just personal preference. While Iverson may have not been a pass first PG that some many people seem to be infatuated with, he still did a better job of changing a game.

As for Marbury, I consider him more or less as being on par with most scoring PG's. Teams are very important and he just has not had one that suits his abilities and methods to open up his teammates.

Billups was still the same Billups he has been in years past. I don't know what major difference you see in him. The fact of the matter is that he has and still gets the job done as a scoring PG.

As I said before with the Warriors, they went on an amazing tear towards the end of the season where they won a ridiculous amount of games. In fact, what I said exactly was "They won a ridiculous amount of games along the lines of 18 out of 21 or something like that to get to where they were. Those kind of streaks just don't happen as a fluke and certainly don't come easy being in the Western Conference." Still, I'm pretty sure your either going to act like you don't understand what I meant or completely ignore the message.

And just as I suspected, you acted like you did not know what I meant. Surprise surprise, you shoot off at the mouth and are wrong again. I looked at the stats just to be sure and the Warriors 16 out of the final 21 games to make it to the playoffs. Since I distinctly remember saying "18 out of 21 or something," I believe that would make me right and you wrong. Good job on that one. As for them losing to the Jazz, they simply did not match up well with them. It still does not discredit what the Warriors accomplished as a team during the playoffs this year, STOPPING your boy Dirk and knocking off a team that I thought was favorites to win the title this year.

I just love it how you attempt to be smart *** yet you just can't manage to do it quite like me. When the Heat started Dwayne Wade, Eddie Jones, Rasual Butler, Udonis Haslem and Shaq during the 2004-2005 season, who did you think was running the point. Hell, who did you think was running the point before they started Shaq? Watching games help, especially when it comes to situation's like these. Even the manor in which you described in, is the same way most scoring PG's perform. So what are you talking about?

Obviously you been chilling to much with other less informed posters because the Shaq and Kobe feud was well documented well before Detriot was even thought of as a title contender. The excerpt your about to read is from January 23, 2001. Last time I checked, that was in the midst of the Lakers second title. It states:
"Shaq and Kobe. Kobe and Shaq. The way the Lakers’ dynamic duo is being talked about, you’d think they were married. Their feud has dominated the buzz around the NBA in recent weeks and threatens to implode a team that is the defending champion but is barely clinging to third place in their own division."

...The article latter goes on to state "Neither is bringing in Isaiah “Don’t call me J.R.” Rider. After all, there’s no way he’ll be as much of a sideshow as Dennis Rodman was … no rainbow hair to distract the media." That statement helps suggest that the feud with Kobe and Shaq had existed before that 2000-2001 season. Last time I checked, the Pistons won the title in 2004. Perhaps you should pick up a newspaper so you can get acclimated with a couple facts that you apparently overlooked the past decade. I'll help you get started by giving you the link to the article:

http://www.thehoya.com/sports/012301/sports4.htm

By the way, you may have not meant to insinuate that Kobe did not play a key role in the Lakers winning a title but your statements suggest otherwise. "First off, numbers dont matter as much as how te player plays the game. People call kobe a ball hog, yet he can average over 5 dimes a game....does that mean he isn't a me player?? course not." Sounded to me as though you felt Kobe was more of a detriment to his team than a positive. If you disagree then please make it clear. If you still consider Kobe a "ball hog" who gets his assist numbers from hogging the ball, I find it interesting what that suggests about other "ball hog's" propensity to contribute to a winning team. Kobe obviously would have 3 rings to show for "hogging the ball" as has other guards in the league that you don't apparently favor.

I also know what you said about Marbury and what you said suggested he isn't a hard worker. You stated "Yes the airness was cocky but his teammates saw how hard he worked and wanted to play hard for him. YOu can't tell me channing frye is going 'ohh man look at how hard steph is going at it, i gotta give it my all.'" Not only did you say that but you highlighted it. I just simply paraphrased exactly what you said.

As for Dirk, think what you want. I made my point as far as I'm concerned. I think he's nothing more than the this team's Peja Stojackovic. Like I said earlier, I find it interesting how one one-dimensional player is basically a "winner" in your book yet our developing one-dimensional player has not chance of ever being anything in this league (Eddy Curry). Anyway, I really don't care to be honest.

CocaineisaHelluvaDrug

Get a room ....christ ...i aint even attempting to read these banal essays

__________________
WWW.STARBURY.COM

alphaorange

I NEVER posted those things about Peja. I don't like him and never was a fan. I ALWAYS thought he was just a shooter. Lay off the drugs. Which Euro do you consider to be better than Dirk? I love it when you express yourself and show the world what a fool you are. And BTW, I am not an MJ fan. I don't like him, never did. I can, however, recognize that he was the most unstoppable force to EVER play the game....especially in the playoffs. He had good talent around him, but that changes nothing about how good he was. Anything else is just revisionism on YOUR part. Kobe is just am MJ wannabe at this point.

alphaorange

You shouldn't be talking about another mans balls......if you know what I mean....and I think you do. Especially you.

knickstorm