Da Grinch

i dont think great 2 guards and great centers are equal.

if you have a franchise center and little else its still a virtual guarentee you will still make the playoff, in fact it doesn't even have to be a center even an exceptional low post pf like a duncan or karl malone are a lock for the playoffs.

kobe is not , his team won 33 games in 2005-06

garnett won 33 games this past season .

how many times did a ewing led team win less than 40 or didn't make the playoffs ?

or olajuwon , or a david robinson or a shaq led team
granted curry is none of them but he can become a franchise center in his prime and pretty much be a lock for 40 or so games a season with a playoff run and the ability for far more ....great players at other positions can give you nothing close to that .

T-mac was once the star of a 21 win team.

if this were a discussion of curry at 24 and a younger Kobe thats one thing , but to rebuild around kobe with no cap space and a team where most of its young real assets were sent for kobe, without a guy like Curry on the roster with him is a disaster waiting to happen in the short and long term.

its not that i dont think kobe is great or a special player , but to rebuild around him at this juncture of his career is way too risky if you send curry for him .

i see the knicks near future like this

the knicks were in the top 10 in offensive efficiency in early march and rising until the injuries hit ....they ultimately finished 17th .

after curry's resurgence in late nov. and marbury's resurgence in december the team's overall offense was very good , they essentially became a bottom 3rd offensive team in the league to a top 3rd offensive team in 3 months time once they all jelled around curry crawford and marbury .

most likely they will be top 5 this season making them an elite offensive team with or without Kobe , that alone will probably get them in the playoffs at a decent seed.

the top 5 offensive teams in the league last year avg. 53.6 wins last season and all of the teams in the top 10 made the playoffs , the top 5 defensive teams avg 55.2 wins last season and 8 of the top 10 made the playoffs including the top 6 defensive teams in the league.

having an identity and excelling at one side of the court is a pretty good indicator of success and the knicks are a team that when healthy do excel on offense.

so as they are building around curry i really dont see a dire need for kobe although he is a clearly exceptional player , but as a guard despite the hyperbole he cant do it by himself and if there isn't enough of a team surrounding him its means rebuilding around a guard in his 30's , that is a recipe for trouble.

To me the best idea is simply to fortify the 4 spot and continue building around Curry , let one of the youngest teams in the nba grow and if there is an opportunity for a star w/o gutting the team, you take it .

its always best to deal from positions of strength.

__________________
"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players."-Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

alphaorange

The bigs you mentioned are ALL complete players who had much more impact on a game other than points scored. ALL were great rebounders and shot blockers, so they could dominate a game on many levels. Naturally this would lead to more wins than a guard could do. Comparison is invalid right from the premise. Comparing Curry to these guys is also crazy. He is better than all but Shaq down low but pails to all but Shaq in offensive versatility. He does not board well and is one of the worst defensive centers to pass through the league in a while. He is the worst passer of the group, which is not easy since Ew wasn't exactly Nash. He is also very TO prone. Curry will NEVER be in the class of those guys so let it go.

Also, offensive efficiency is what matters, not points scored. They scored more because they gave up more. Take a look at efficiency. If they are top ten, I'll be shocked. They were far too careless with the ball.

Da Grinch

you shouldn't be arrogant in your post when you dont read mine all that well.

i said curry isn't any of those guys but he can grow into franchise center and have that kind of impact.

carelessness with the ball is funny to me , most people who watch curry play know he gets most of his turnovers from 3 sec. violations and offensive fouls...which i would guess account for at least 2 turnovers per game.

he rarely passes , so of course he rarely makes bad passes.

82games.com says he only made 48 passing turnovers all season. its not really an issue of his ability , which i do consider poor passingwise , its moreso he really doesn't look to pass at all, that comes with, maturity, time on the court as a focal point and stability , as he runs an offensive sys. for more than a year , he has still never had a head coach for 2 full seasons which means his offensive growth as far as awareness has been severly hampered as well as what he's been asked to do as a player.

by the end of last season he was starting to hit cutters , showing he is now at least beginning to look for people to keep defenses guessing.

__________________
"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players."-Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

Da Grinch

also on offensive efficiency .

it really doesn't matter what you do on defense for the most part .

teams with fast tempos and slow ones were in the top 5 as well as good and not so good defensive teams.

and the knicks counteract their high turnovers with good rebounding especially on the offensive boards, getting to the line , when they are clicking they are very hard to stop because they have quite a few weapons.

__________________
"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players."-Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

knickstorm

I still don't see how Curry can grow into a franchise center and have the impact those previously mentioned did. There's just too much he has to improve on. Let's throw out the shaq led team because every shaq led team had a stud ala penny, kobe, wade. All i know if when Kobe wasnt kobe, the Shaq led team aint win anything. Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing were all defensive monsters. You can win with them because they can do so much on their own. THey make everyone better. If your man drives by you, they're there to back you up. No defenders are looking to pass cause Eddy Curry's in their way. I dont think they ever will. Eddy also needs to improve with how he deals with double teams.The aforementioned players could do that.

Curry on an elite team has to play second fiddle. Yes the knicks are a very good rebounding team but that has little to do with curry. We saw once david lee went out last year with that hamstring that never healed that the knicks were frequently losing games on the rebounding end.

Who knows you may be right, but in order to impact the game to a point where the knicks can be playoff contenders every year solely based on his talents, edddy curry has a loooonnngg way to go.

alphaorange

You need to read better as well. I said he wasn't as good as those guys.....and NEVER would be. Only a fool would think he would ever end up in their class. As far as efficiency goes, you're right, pace doesn't have much to do with it. It's about how many points you score per offensive possession. If I'm not mistaken, your post doesn't address that at all. Regarding Eddy's TOs...who cares how he gets them or what they are. The end result is the same and until he stops getting them, what I said is true. Being a bad passer does not, in fact, just mean the ball is errant every time it is passed. It also means that a guy is incapable of making a pass when he should. I never said that it was only Curry that was careless with the ball. In fact, I never associated that with him specifically at all. I said THEY, as in the Knick team. Since Curry averaged .8 assists per game, I would hardly celebrate his ability to hit the cutter.

You went off on everything I wrote but didn't address any off the points I made. You need to read better. I know Curry is your boy (and Twinks), but both of you gush about what he may become. I prefer to live in the present and discuss what he is. We can debate the future of Curry, if you wish, but that would be a waste of time since there is nothing but hypotheticals.

'Storm is right. Curry will need to be a second fiddle if the team he is on is to be a contender. It is the same as I've said all along. There will also need to be solid pieces surrounding him and whoever is #1.

Da Grinch

actually i wrote this right after that in post 34.

i guessed you missed while somehow responding to a portion of it directly above ...my comments about your reading still stands.

and it does matter how you get your turnovers for instance if half of his turnovers were over the back fouls it wouldn't automatically be bad thing in spite of the fact he was losing possesions because it means he was actively trying to board in a fashion he doesn't really do now.

players who get a lot those type of turnovers generally get a boatload of off. rebound more than making up for times the ref calls them for overaggression.

3sec. to's are generally caused by your teammates passing up open looks and poor entry passing and recognition, not really a bad thing for eddy to get unless he was just lazily camping in the post , which he doesn't do.

the off. fouls especially the way he was getting them early in the season were bad but part of the price of punding the ball inside against an increasingly flopper league.

almost all the great centers had flaws the opposition could take advantage of.

shaq is maybe the worst defender of the pick and roll ever.

ewing was a poor passer.

david robinson had no post up moves or any kind of real post up game.

and early in his career olajuwon was a horrible leader , maybe the worst of any great player the last 20 years with his constant blaming of his teammates for everything wrong.

in the months of dec., jan., and feb. i bet you would be surprised by how efficient the knicks were

__________________
"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players."-Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

alphaorange

It may help offset their high TO rate, but it does nothing to change their lack of offensive efficiency. As I said, they are a poor offensive team efficiency wise. Lee and Qrich's board work aside, they are NOT a good offensive team. That is what I posted and that is a fact. What you posted is irrelevant as far as opposing my point. Are they, or are they not inefficient?

My reading and comp is just fine. Yours, however, needs work. Your statement about rebounding is somewhat true, but has nothing to do with my post. Just respond to the points.

Da Grinch

there are some things you are missing.

for 1 Lee's rebounding wasn't all that important ....they missed his somewhat reluctant jumpshot more than anything else.

the knicks were almost never outrebounded by big margins when lee was out , they were only outrebounded by more than 4 one time from his injury(feb 21 was the beginning of the games he missed) until the end of the season and that was the 1st game he missed...after that basically balkman filled in for him rather nicely...also collins , jeffries and francis are all good rebounders who were players getting time in the last 2 months....in april they outboarded opponents by 8.5 rebounds a game....lee is good but he was absolutely not irreplaceable....the knicks more pressing matters were that while all the guys who got playing time could board none of them were what you would call good shooters when open.

the knicks in their final 26 games were outrebounded 6 times by margins of 1(twice) 2 (twice) 3 (once and 4 (once) while outrebounding opponents by at least 9 8 times 2 of those times by monsterous margins (24 &21)

it would be nice if curry boarded more , very nice but the knick appear to be very capable of dominating the boards with the results he gives now.

__________________
"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players."-Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

Da Grinch

the knicks finished 17th in offensive efficiency , before the injuries hit they were in the top 10 and rising, you can believe what you want to believe but when heathy the knicks are an efficient team on offense.,

also getting to the line is actually the most efficient way to score points , and since i have already mentioned that more than once that the knick get to the line quite a bit i will assume you read it and that the concept is simply over your head.

__________________
"The country is full of good coaches. What it takes to win is a bunch of interested players."-Don Coryell, ex-San Diego Chargers Coach

TwinkieFoot

1.) Pure conjecture. Just because they had names attached to their supporting cast, did not make them a real team. Sometimes stars can't play roles just as how some role players can't be a star.

2.) Against guards, Jordan was a pretty good post threat. If you do recall correctly, the Bulls posted him and Pippen (moreso Pippen) many times in the post. It's how they got past the fact that they had no real big men that could score in the paint.

3.) Why the hell does Kobe and Curry have to win a title in the first year? Do you have not have the ability to see long term and down the road in the future? You only need role players around those guys and you can get about two good ones with the MLE.

alphaorange

#1)Not conjecture. Fact. If you believe otherwise, you're a fool.

#2)Don't preach to me about MJ. I know how old you are and what you could have seen. I actually watched him. He was not featured in the paint. THAT is also a fact.

#3)I do have vision and I also have a brain. They have to win soon or all bets are off. Kobe is not going to get better, and Curry will get only marginally better. They will not improve personnel because they will not be able to and besides, you do not see players clamoring to play with Kobe. Why is that? This is moot because he will not ever be here., but your remarks are pure fantasy at this time. That is a fact.