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**Da Grinch** · 07-18-2007, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiyaman

That was 2004, it is 2007, three years later and all of the Knicks contracts are expired now.
The only long contract he had was Allan Houston and Anderson.

The Main Point is Expiring Contracts get you good decent Players which Isiah have yet to get.
Going after players that argue about their Playingtime is not a good sign for any G.M.. Norris, Penny, Tim Thomas, Baker, Crawford, Curry, Jalen, and Francis all had several media incidents with their coaches about their playingtime before Isiah brang them to New York.

you do know GM's get fired for doing nothing right?

its not his job to sit around and wait for players to come off the books , it was job to find new talent to replace the old and used up talent on the team .

there was no youth on the team so when those guys left who was going to take up the slack...if the knicks wanted to go down and old and boring team they would have kept layden.

i don't understand how you can in 1 thread talk about how he must play certain players because they are so good and then in this thread talk about how he has gotten no good players.

ron artest called the knicks championship material in africa 2 days ago...so he disagrees with you as well as others , most consider curry an all star caliber player , same with zach randolph ...marbury is a 2 time all star ...i know how you feel about lee , collins and robinson and the other sub 25 year olds from previous posts.

but basically the team started with nothing when zeke got here, no players with any trade value and now he has a bunch of young energetic players .

do you really think deke mutumbo is a viable starting nba center and would rather have him than curry

or rather have kurt thomas than zach randolph .

frank williams charlie ward howard eisley instead of marbury nate and collins

you would rather have K. Van horn than q.richardson
and shandon anderson instead of jamal crawford?

or how about mcdyess instead of david lee or mike doleac instead of randolph morris
.

or how about demarr johnson , othella harrington and mike sweetney instead of renaldo balkman , wilson chandler and demtrius nichols?

this team is just so much better than the dreck thomas inherited.

alphaorange · 07-18-2007, 01:28 PM

It would have been fine to let the contracts expire as long as there was a plan in place. There was no plan that anyone could see in the beginning. It wasn't until he was unable to field a competitive team that IT admitted that he had to rebuild. He was simply unwilling to do it at first and used the typical "NY fans won't stand for a rebuilding effort" line. As a fan, I was insulted. He thought he could retool rather than rebuild and he said as much. I think he didn't let contracts run out because it wasn't his plan to do so. No way he would work for a guy telling him what to do. He is far too egotistical.

The team is "rebuilt" now, for better or worse. We shall see how it turned out. If IT is wrong, he has wasted several years because that will mean we are yet years away. If the team is a contender, I'm happy. I would have preferred he let the contracts run out, take the losses and lotto picks, and go for a big FA or two, buts thats me.

It seems that he is trying to resurrect the Detroit teams he was on, but the game has changed. I see a weak defensive team that will pound teams to death on inside offense but will struggle to stop anyone from scoring. Should be an interesting season.

**Da Grinch** · 07-18-2007, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphaorange

It would have been fine to let the contracts expire as long as there was a plan in place. There was no plan that anyone could see in the beginning. It wasn't until he was unable to field a competitive team that IT admitted that he had to rebuild. He was simply unwilling to do it at first and used the typical "NY fans won't stand for a rebuilding effort" line. As a fan, I was insulted. He thought he could retool rather than rebuild and he said as much. I think he didn't let contracts run out because it wasn't his plan to do so. No way he would work for a guy telling him what to do. He is far too egotistical.

The team is "rebuilt" now, for better or worse. We shall see how it turned out. If IT is wrong, he has wasted several years because that will mean we are yet years away. If the team is a contender, I'm happy. I would have preferred he let the contracts run out, take the losses and lotto picks, and go for a big FA or two, buts thats me.

It seems that he is trying to resurrect the Detroit teams he was on, but the game has changed. I see a weak defensive team that will pound teams to death on inside offense but will struggle to stop anyone from scoring. Should be an interesting season.

I think it was obvious and the point has already been made that while you say it was alright with you ...it was certainly not o.k. with the people who hired Thomas. he was parroting what he was told as cablevision is pretty darn aware of their public image and they didn't want to rebuild they wanted to reload ...but without Houston its stupidity to reload as a drive and kick team without your best shooter, it like trying to be an inside team without your best post player...a recipe for disaster.

I think that at 1st he was trying to rebuild his old piston teams but when H20 went down it put him in a quandry as far as making out his 3 guard rotation which was the backbone of that team and its main offensive weapon...the group of houston marbury and crawford backing them up would have been quite formidable.

this new team is the opposite .

this is an interior based unit , which will try to beat team by getting shots as close to the hoop as possible , this team is probably not a very good defensive unit without serious roster upgrades , but it should be far better than that piston team on offense with consistent inside points from 2 guys who are among the best scorers in the nba ...this team will try to outscore other units, doing just enough on defense to pull out victories.

from a pure physical standpoint eddy and zach are probably the strongest C-PF duo in the league and should be a dominant unit on the boards.

CocaineisaHelluvaDrug · 07-21-2007, 02:43 PM

I think u need to wait half a season b4 making judgements on this new teams ability because i have severe reservations about the curry/randolph tandem,have u ever seen 2 players with such leaden feet and a penchant for holding on to the ball for 20 secs every posession?

On paper the knicks look legitimate conference contenders but if things start to go wrong it wont be long b4 curry,randolph,nate,steph etc start snapping at each other.

i hope im wrong btw!!

bcoleman123 · 07-22-2007, 04:48 PM

I think Isiah has done a good job. He has made us legitimately younger, and allowed us to have one of the best offensive frontcourts in the East (hopefully). He has also done a great job in the draft, drafting guys that no one expected and recieving criticism for them, until people saw them play in the NBA.

And the Knicks losing woes is Marbury's fault? Yea right! This is a team sport, and one guy can not be responsible for an entire string of seasons. He did improve at the end of last year shooting when he needed to and passing when he needed to. He became more of a passer until Crawford got hurt, then realizing he needed to shoot more he did, and it worked. We will see what this new team can do though.

Kiyaman · 07-23-2007, 11:07 AM

I'm going to take you down memory lane and bring you to the future update.

Detroit Drafted Allan Houston. Throughout Allan Houston run with Detroit Player Dumars and Grant Hill was not pleasant with Allan Houston performance. They both bashed Allan Houston constantly when he became a Knick. And we all know how close friends Dumars & Isiah became as Players and even closer as retired Players of the Detroit Pistons.

When Allan Houston hit that last shot vs the Miami Heat to WIN the series in the first round of the Mighty Miami Heat Team that the NBA and Los Vegas had pick 200 to 1 to WIN the 1998-9 Championship Title that season (Knicks were a 8th seeded team).
After that series the Allan Houston Knicks without injured Patrick Ewing walked right through the Larry Brown Indiana Pacers in 6 Games making the Knicks Houston-Sprewell Tandem look unstopable for the Finals. That offseason the Knicks still did not select a G.M. yet after the firing of Ernie Grunfield the Owner Dolan personally gave Allan Houston that BIG Max Contract that was at least $40 million dollars to much. Although Allan Houston Performance in All the Post Season Games if you were a Betting Knick-Fan Won close to a Billion Dollars in the Betting Market. The Knicks were a 8th seeded team that made it to the FINALS.

There was NO TEAM in the NBA that was going to swallow or take part in consumming one season of Allan Houston Contract. Everyone who knew anything about the NBA and the Knicks team knew that Allan Houston Contract was a Knick for Life Contract.
Everybody but DUM Isiah Thomas.

Allan Houston was a deadly 20 point scorer on the Knicks untill the day that Isiah Thomas became G.M. for the Knicks.
Instead of Zeke making friends with Allan Houston like he did with Marbury & Curry, when he first arrived as the Knick G.M. he BASHED Allan Houston his first two seasons as the Knick G.M.. Isiah recieved TWO losing seasons with an INJURED Allan Houston.

Allan Houston made it explicitly clear to Laydumb publically that offseason to dont trade his best Church Friend Charlie Ward (expiring Contract) on the Knicks because we need Ward's Playoff experience if Mcdyess is healthy and KVH plays his part this season.
And what was the first thing that Isiah Thomas did his first month as the Knick G.M.? he traded Charlie Ward, plus Embarrassed Coach Chaney in front of a Crowd of Fans by not letting Coach Chaney in Madison Square Garden to Coach the Knicks that night. The Guards had to tell Coach Chaney he was FIRED as the Knicks Coach.
That is embarrasing to any employee by there supervisor.
Isiah Thomas Lost respect from FANS and Knick Players for that move.

Now getting Marbury, after Assistant Coach Eddie Jordan & Mike O'Koren did their best with Marbury for two seasons to Run the Princeton-Offense under Head Coach Scott for New Jersey Nets running offensive players of Kerry Kittles, KVH, Steve Jackson, and K-Mart.
Stephon Marbury REFUSE to do this in practice and in the game for two seasons making each one of his teammates come down with season INJURIES just not to play with Marbury.
Somehow this same situation was taking affect with Marbury in Phoenix too in the Start of the 2003-4 season when Phoenix got off to the worst start in their NBA history where the Phoenix Suns had to FIRE their Head Coach before the teams 20th game that season. When last Season Rookie of the Year Amare Stoudemire complained of injuries where he felt he should not be playing in all these consecutive losing games the Phoenix Suns started Shopping Marbury.

When you take Parker out of the Spurs lineup for a month what happens?
When you take Chris Paul out of New Orleans lineup for a month what happens?
When you take Kidd out of the NETS lineup for a month what happens?
When you take Nash out of the Suns lineup for a month what happens?
When you take Billups out of the Pistons lineup for a month what happens?

The above PG are all 35 MPG players for their teams just like Marbury.
When Isiah Thomas was given an extension on his contract the Knicks went on the longest losing streak this past season, what happen when Marbury was taken out of the lineup during this consistent losing streak and Nate & Collins replaced him? The losing streak was STOPPED. We started winning some and losing some.

Now this offseason the Knicks added a NBA player (Zack Randolph) that will insist on taking at least 15 or more shots a game, especially if the team is not playing .500 Ball.
Curry wants 15 shots too.
Crawford wants 15 shots too.
Marbury would like to take 10 or more shots to be contempt.
Whats the Problem? that's over 50 shots by just 4 players that only KNOW how to play "ONE on ONE" Ball in their NBA career.
Plus they have showed very little talent on playing DEFENSE with their teammates in their NBA career.
How long will it take for the Four above Players to learn how to play .500 Ball on both sides of the court together this upcomming season???

**Da Grinch** · 07-23-2007, 06:52 PM

the critism of shots distributed could at one time have been made of the pistons .

when players want to win sacrifices are made...for right now the players are saying the right things the season will tell if they mean it or not.

also Layden started the talks with the suns for marbury , but he was fired before he could complete the trade , but its a sure bet the suns who wanted cap releif would have gotten ward and mcdyess at the very least because of their contracts which were ending deals.

there is no conspiracy , thomas initial moves were not of the rebuilding variety they were relaoding moves to build around Houston.

Marbury was the premiere drive and kick guard in the league when the deal was done.

Tim thomas is a better shooter than KVH and nazr was a better player overall than doleac.

along with kurt thomas this team was built to compete now .

built on pick and rolls and drives and kickouts , even with H2O playing roughly half of the games that marbury was on the team for , the knicks finished Marbury 1st season 25-22 and getting better the longer they had to gel.

the problem is microfracture surgery a procedure Houston got and his leg never fully recovered and with that his athletism and ability to be a competent nba player.

sometimes a player comes back and does well , sometimes not, houston falls into the not category....rememeber Crawford was brought in to be a 3rd guard not a starter but he has been starting pretty much ever since.

alphaorange · 07-24-2007, 04:33 AM

But Tim Thomas was not a better shooter than KVH. It might be PERCEPTION but the stats do not bear it out. In fact, they are very close with a slight edge overall to VH and a slight edge from 3 to TT....and I mean slight. KVH was a higher scorer, a better rebounder, a better defender(although not good), and a better locker room guy. IT made the trade on potential. Nazr over Doleac is also debatable. Different styles but he got Nazr to be a shot blocker and low post presence. How'd THAT work out. IT took chances and some worked, some didn't. I firmly believe he wanted to rid the team of all Layden players, though.

**Da Grinch** · 07-24-2007, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphaorange

But Tim Thomas was not a better shooter than KVH. It might be PERCEPTION but the stats do not bear it out. In fact, they are very close with a slight edge overall to VH and a slight edge from 3 to TT....and I mean slight. KVH was a higher scorer, a better rebounder, a better defender(although not good), and a better locker room guy. IT made the trade on potential. Nazr over Doleac is also debatable. Different styles but he got Nazr to be a shot blocker and low post presence. How'd THAT work out. IT took chances and some worked, some didn't. I firmly believe he wanted to rid the team of all Layden players, though.

actually the stats do bear it out , Tim Thomas shoots better from 3 point range and 2 point range , so until they make 4 point shots Thomas is the better shooter...and really i dont know who is a better locker room guy Tim Thomas actually appears to be quite a decent fellow and KVH is no chior boy either both have ahd their issues with other teammates and have been traded for the sake of chemistry.

i do agree van horn was a better player though , but as a shooter/finisher Tim is a better option especially on kickouts which is how the team was being reformed as an ouside shooting unit in which nazr was brought in to rebound which he does much better than doleac , and since in the last 5 seasons doleac has pretty much been an end of the bench reserve while nazr more often than not has been a starter , i think narz is clearly the better player...especially considering when doleac did start many years ago all he did was prove he was not starter material.

and i dont think Thomas got nazr for a low post presence just rebounding and a more atletic team.....as mentioned by thomas when the deal was done.

Quote:

"We are happy to be adding two players who address our most immediate goal of becoming more athletic," Isiah Thomas said. "Tim Thomas is a young, versatile small forward who suits our style of play very well, and Nazr Mohammed is a strong front-court player who will help us with rebounding and interior defense. Although we had to part with two quality players and individuals, we felt this trade makes us better now and in the future."

http://www.insidehoops.com/trade-ny-...l-021604.shtml

and since nazr is a better defender than doleac its hard to see where Thomas was wrong on that one....and i dont see anything about shotblocking there....basically they got a starter for a reserve.

bluecro · 07-24-2007, 08:05 AM

Man Knicks fan hate Isiah Thomas more than other fans do.

alphaorange · 07-24-2007, 05:18 PM

KVH 44.3 career from 2, TT 43.9

KVH 36.1 from 3, TT 37.3

Where was I wrong again?

Yeah, Nazr sure is starting material. Not touting Doleac, but on the Knicks he was the better fit. Nazr is not starting material, never was, and never will be. His only starts were on teams that thought he might deliver but ultimately found out he could not. Bench player.

**Da Grinch** · 07-24-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alphaorange

KVH 44.3 career from 2, TT 43.9

KVH 36.1 from 3, TT 37.3

Where was I wrong again?

Yeah, Nazr sure is starting material. Not touting Doleac, but on the Knicks he was the better fit. Nazr is not starting material, never was, and never will be. His only starts were on teams that thought he might deliver but ultimately found out he could not. Bench player.

I'll reiterate

on 2 pointers Thim Thomas is shooting .467 for his career ,

KVH .466

you are reading their fg% which includes them both together

but since timmy shoots a good bit higher % of his shots from 3 point range and that % is lower than his FG% it brings it down below KVH's fg# but he does shoot a better % from both .

so yeah you are wrong, its really simple math i dont think i should reply again on the topic of their shooting #s.

as for doleac he has started 11 games all due to injury of the the incument starter over the last 5 years ...while Nazr has been installed as a starter on numerous occasions over the last half decade so a bunch of coahes at least for a time thought Nazr was a starter until something better came along which basically makes him a fringe starter , as opposed to doleac who is an end of the bench reserve .

i mean its really simple on the knicks he(doleac) came off the bench behind Deke and when nazr was traded for he started .and since then nazr has for the most part started and doleac has been 3rd string.

nazr is better ....unless you have something that proves otherwise thats what I and those player respective coaches, Thomas who was the GM who swapped MD out and nazr in and the general babsketball viewing public will go by.

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