Da Grinch

Apparently Marbury's and Zeke's relationship has deteroriated in part due to the attempted benching and because Marbury feels Thomas and Dolan were trying to give him blame for the knicks start and troubles.

Yesterday the knicks beat the Nets without Kidd but the knicks were missing both Marbury and Curry, the 2 of the cornerstones of the team along with crawford and Randolph, the offense seemed much smoother than usual and the defense actually seemed half decent too.

in the last 2 seasons the knicks are 2-0 without curry mostly because Crawford 81 points combined in those 2 games.

without marbury the knicks are for the most part atriocious , but they also missed alot of other good players for the most part when Marbury missed games.

Do you feel the the knicks have scapegoated him , and if so was it justified?

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Krstic All Star

It's funny. I have very little confidence in Marbury as a guy to run a team, so if this sort of thing happened anywhere else, I wouldn't stand up for him. HOWEVER, we're talking about the Dolan/Thomas Knicks, and if there's anything they stand for (aside from sexual harassment and how to ruin a franchise) it's duplicity. Straight out, hard-core lying.

So yes, I do believe Marbury has been scapegoated. It's not that there isn't a fair amount that should be laid at his feet, but the blame for the Knicks as a team sure as Hell doesn't properly lay with him.

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ehmunro

I think it's a perception is reality thing. Marbury's mentor dies and he immediately went to see the man's family, and gets crucified for missing a game in the meantime. Then gets crucified for not skipping a game for the death of another relative. I'm not aware of any of the reporters that BBQed Stephie for missing a game unannounced even so much as partially retracting anything they said after hearing that he'd spent his MIA time consoling the family members of a high school mentor. Meanwhile I haven't heard even a tithe of that controversy over Jason Kidd's taking off unannounced. And unlike Stephie (who's a little crazy, but clearly a good guy), Kidd's a pretty rotten human being. But somehow he gets a pass. I just don't get it.

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USSKittyHawk

I definitely agree with KAS's overall posts and ehmunro's. Kidd can comitt domestic violence against his wife, grope a female at a club, and come down with "blue flu" by claiming he has a bad migrane because we all know he wants to, either receive a contract extension or be traded, but he dosen't take any major hits like Steph does when it comes to the press. I've met Steph numerous times, and he is indeed a good guy off the court and is really has a good heart. Steph gives back to the community 3 million to Hurricane Katrina, comes up with a great idea in terms of his sneaker deal but always gets the raw end of the stick, and receives snide remarks from the likes of Lebron. On the court it's a different story, Steph will never change his ways in terms of being a horribble leader and that is one of the major negatives that has haunted him. You have to lead by example on the court, otherwise the entire team will follow your lead as captain on this team. All in all he should not receive most of the blamed for the failures of this organization, because #1 he didn't assemble the team, and didn't make the personnel decisions, the Knicks team is Isiah's vision, Steph is just part of the foundation and quite frankly he didn't ask to be here.

Eventually he will no longer be on this team, but I still like him as a human being and support him, and overall I'm happy to see a kid from Brooklyn straight out of the projects accomplish his dreams in becoming an NBA player, and taking care of his family.

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ChosenFEW

because kidd is a winner and marbury is a loser

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ehmunro

What the hell has Kidd ever won? He's on a team with a second all star, a star level player, a very promising 4/5, and Krstic, and he's demanding to be traded. If he ever wins anything it will be because he goes to a team with a player that can carry a team on his shoulders, because Kidd sure as hell can't.

__________________
"The Spurs are the Jason Voorhees of the NBA. No matter how many times you think you've finally killed them, turn your back on them and they're right back on their feet, machete in one hand and chainsaw in the other."

"Tim Duncan is the biggest crybaby in the NBA. If the Spurs were gay, he'd be Liberace." MCD

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

"I do not know what the Queensberry rules are, sir, but the Wilde rules are to shoot on sight!" Oscar Wilde to the Marquis of Queensbury after being threatened by the former pugilist.

Those who are in the know praise Dead Women Tell No Tales:

"The account of Kobe participating in orgies and the description of the surroundings is accurate. I attended few of those parties myself..." -- Jondell R. Montgomery, Long Beach, 2006

alphaorange

Kidd is a pretty good player who is seldom to blame for his team's failures. Hard to scapegoat him. Marbury's play is erratic, his defense GENERALLY horrible, and he rarely says the right thing from a team POV. In other words, Kidd BLENDS....Steph doesn't. All this is just an on the court observation. Kidd seems the far inferior human. That being said, I gave not gotten the feeling Steph is being made the scapegoat for the teams lousy play. I DO get the feeling that he is reluctant to do what IT wants him to. After the incident in which he left the team, he said (when interviewed) that he would continue to do exactly what he had been doing and change nothing. Prolly not what IT was hoping to hear.

ChosenFEW

i was thinking more in the lines of comparing their careers.


just a quick google search and i found this from on another knicks board (would give credit but not sure if promoting other forums is allowed)

Minnesota:
Marbury's winning percentage in Minnesota - .533.
Minnesota's winning percentage the next two seasons after Marbury leaves with Terrell Brandon running the point - .591.

New Jersey:
Winning percentage the year before Marbury arrived with Sam Cassell running the point - .524.
Winning percentage with Marbury - .359.
Winning percentage next two seasons after Marbury with Jason Kidd running the point - .616.

Phoenix:
Winning percentage the year before Marbury arrived with Jason Kidd running the point - .622.
Winning percentage with Marbury - .465.
Winning percentage after Marbury with Steve Nash running the point - .707.

New York:
Winning percentage the year before Marbury arrived with Charlie Ward and Howard Eisley running the point - .451.
Winning percentage with Marbury - .386

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ehmunro

New Jersey suffered massive injury losses during Marbury's time there and Phoenix blew up its team in the wake of Kidd's wife beating and the drug stories (not related to Kidd specifically) picking up again. Their interest in Marbury wasn't in playing for a title, it was in his nice guy reputation off the court (while they were in rebuilding mode). All of this avoids the question, what the hell has Jason Kidd ever won? He couldn't do it in Dallas, couldn't get it done in Phoenix, can't get it done in New Jersey, despite having a damned good supporting cast. How much longer is he not going to get the job done before people admit that he's a complementary player? (And all of this is beside the question of this thread; Kidd, a wife beater and substance abuser, gets a free pass for turning his back on the Nets and disappearing before a game. Did people cut Vinsanity this kind of slack for his shameful performance in Toronto?)

I've never been a huge fan of Stephie's game. I think he gets a lot of "loser" crap for the situations that he's landed in (to wit, teams tend to trade for him to keep the fans entertained while they're rebuilding), and I've rehashed this endlessly on the main board (New Jersey's injury nightmares, Phoenix's blowing up of its team and use of Marbury to improve its image in the community, New York's importing him into a lunatic asylum). I do think that's generally unfair, because he really has no control over where he's been traded to. At the end of the day he isn't really (to my mind) a great player, so much as an entertaining one.

From a technical standpoint, he scores efficiently enough when he puts his mind to it, but he has an alphadog personality in a gammadog game. If he wanted to he could be a good complementary player for a good team. I just don't think Stephie has that in him. He's spent too many years as the primary attraction for rebuilding teams. But he's worlds better than Kidd as a human being and JK deserves a heaping ration of **** for his disgraceful act of skipping a game to force a trade. That's Vince Carter territory.

__________________
"The Spurs are the Jason Voorhees of the NBA. No matter how many times you think you've finally killed them, turn your back on them and they're right back on their feet, machete in one hand and chainsaw in the other."

"Tim Duncan is the biggest crybaby in the NBA. If the Spurs were gay, he'd be Liberace." MCD

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

"I do not know what the Queensberry rules are, sir, but the Wilde rules are to shoot on sight!" Oscar Wilde to the Marquis of Queensbury after being threatened by the former pugilist.

Those who are in the know praise Dead Women Tell No Tales:

"The account of Kobe participating in orgies and the description of the surroundings is accurate. I attended few of those parties myself..." -- Jondell R. Montgomery, Long Beach, 2006

ChosenFEW

well boston fans are known for their hate for kidd.


I dont like kidd myself, but when compared to marbury kidd is like kobe beef, where as marbury is that mad cow disease riddled beef from some shady farm

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ehmunro

I think I'm more with Hollinger on this one, in that point guards just aren't as important as people make them out to be. Kidd's played on some damned good teams, and hasn't ever put any of them over the top. If he's playing with James or Bryant, he's going to have to accept being the betadog. Will he? Who knows. He's still a disgraceful human being.

__________________
"The Spurs are the Jason Voorhees of the NBA. No matter how many times you think you've finally killed them, turn your back on them and they're right back on their feet, machete in one hand and chainsaw in the other."

"Tim Duncan is the biggest crybaby in the NBA. If the Spurs were gay, he'd be Liberace." MCD

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

"I do not know what the Queensberry rules are, sir, but the Wilde rules are to shoot on sight!" Oscar Wilde to the Marquis of Queensbury after being threatened by the former pugilist.

Those who are in the know praise Dead Women Tell No Tales:

"The account of Kobe participating in orgies and the description of the surroundings is accurate. I attended few of those parties myself..." -- Jondell R. Montgomery, Long Beach, 2006