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Best PG In NBA History

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#1 ·
I used to think that the best PG in NBA history was John Stockton. At first glance, when you look at the total numbers, Stockton is far superior to the next closest competitors which would arguably be Magic and Isiah. However, when you look at the numbers per game played, which are more significant, you quickly see that Magic was a far better and more valuable point guard. Magic was able to dominate games. Stockton was able to play within the offense and do a variety of things well, and to minimize his turnovers and to control the pace of the game. His impact was much different than Magic's.

Lets take a look at the numbers first. A lot of casual fans look at total numbers and use this to justify claims such as "best point guard ever". However, total numbers mean NOTHING except that the player was able to rack up steals and points over an extended period of time (I think this is clarified when you consider Mark Jackson is the 2nd all time in assists...its hard to argue he's one of the best 20 point guards in the history of the game). The per game numbers are the great equalizer. You have to remember that Magic played many less games than Stockton due to his illness.

So lets look at the per game numbers.

ppg - 19.5
ast - 11.19
rbg - 7.2
stg - 1.902
bpg 0.412

ppg - 13.1
ast - 10.5
rbg - 2.70
stg - 2.17
bpg - 0.21


Now, if you look at the columns, you see that the player on the top has superior numbers. The player on the top has higher totals in everything but steals (the difference is less than 1/3 a steal per game (so that's marginal), whereas, this player has higher assist per game values, and a HUGE advantage in rebounds and points per game. The player on the top is only 3 rebounds short of averaging a triple double for his career. That is an impressive feat. The player on the top is Magic.

Now, some will argue that Magic was taller, and it was easier for him to get boards. But what does that matter? This is the best point guard ever ranking thread. If we wanted to rank the best "unathletic pg" or the best "white pg" that's fine. However, if Magic has physical advantages which make him better than Stockton, then so be it. If he is built to be a better player, that's stricktly his good fortune, and something that has to be ignored.

Now, if you want to disregard these stats, you certainly can. But you can't lose sight of other things. Say you decide that the difference between the career per game stats is marginal, not a deciding factor. How about differences in such awards as MVP's, Playoff MVP's, Championships etc. etc. Magic has a clear advantage over Stockton in ALL of these categories. This is one of the things that has swayed me to believe that Magic is the best PG of all time. Stockton has NEVER won a championship. This to me seems to be a very important criteria to meet when being considered one of the best players ever. As a point guard, as the best ever, Stockton should have been counted on to lead his team to the finals more than once. Like I said above, while there was the occasional instance, night in and night out, Stockton did not take over and dominate the ball games he played in a fashion similar to Magic.

Alright you say. Championships mean nothing. MVP's mean nothing. How about playoff performance. Basketball is a team game, and maybe one player cannot win a series. But you can certainly elevate your game in the playoffs, to help your team win. Consider the numbers of Magic and Stockton in the NBA playoffs over their career. And remember, the post-season is considered to be a time when the competition is much more severe, and where it is hard to put up great numbers.

ppg - 19.5
ast - 12.35
rbg - 7.7
stg - 2.17
bpg - 0.21

ppg - 13.4
ast - 10.1
rbg - 3.30
stg - 1.86
bpg - 0.27

Magic was able to elevate his rebound, assist and steal numbers in the playoffs. Whereas, Stockton, over his career saw a decline in his assit numbers in the playoffs (however, only a very slight one), a drop in his steals pergame and a drop in his scoring. While the drops in Stocktons production are mild (really inconsequential), when constrasted to Magic's slight increases, it can be argued, that Magic raised his level of play in the post-season to a higher level than he played in the regular season, wherease Stockton showed no similar change in his game.

Ultimately, the people who claim Stockton is the greatest point guard usually base this claim soley on three things. 1. the number of total assits he has (a number inflated because of the many games he played. As we have seen, Magic averaged more assists per game. As I've said earlier...is Mark Jackson the 2nd best PG ever?) 2. the number of steals he has. (Again, inflated by his longevity. Manute Bol has a lot of blocks, but nobody would consider him one of the greatest centers of all time. While a severe analogy, steals, and while an important category, total steals should not be something someone's overall greatness is based on). 3. his longevity. Stockton has maintained such a high level of play for such a long time, this adds to his legend. This longevity has also inflated his stats.

For me however, what has changed my mind is the dominance of these two men. Stockton was unable to take over a game like Magic was. Sure he wasn't as athletically gifted (but this isn't the "best least athletic point guard" category - Magic was a pointguard, so he is measured against any others who have played the position), but he still didn't dominate the game like Magic. Magic was able to take control and lead his team. Sure Magic had better teams, but Stockton still played with Malone, a very good player. A majority of the teams which Stockton led were not bad at all.

There are just too many favorable comparisons to be made in the defense of Magic as the best ever. While I love Stockton, and I do think he's the second or at worst, third best PG ever, the statistics of Magic are too compelling to put him anywhere but first on the list.

Truthfully, I'd like to see an argument for Stockton. I like him a lot more than Magic. Actually, I really don't like Magic at all. So please, I'm not 100% set with this claim, however, I think it would take a creative and compelling argument to change my mind in any fashion.
 
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#3 ·
Originally posted by <b>s00pers0nics</b>!
you have alot of time on your hands... stockton is the best pg ever
I have quite possibly the easiest job ever. So at least I'm getting paid while I'm wasting my time.

Either way. That was quite the eloquent argument. Well done.
 
#5 ·
What about the guy who defined the PG position:



None other than Bob Cousy who was one of the greatest dribblers and distributors of all time

"What Russell was on defense, that's what Cousy was on offense -- a magician. Once that ball reached his hands, the rest of us just took off, never bothering to look back."

-- Former Celtic great Tommy Heinsohn

"Cousy was the ultimate point guard, the engine that propelled the team. At full speed he could see the whole court and spot the open man -- even if that player was trailing behind. The league had never seen a player with sharper peripheral vision. His repertoire of passes; no-lookers, spinning dishes, behind-the-back feeds and half-court rocket shots-predated those of Earvin "Magic" Johnson by three decades. When driving to the hoop he knew precisely when to dish off, and to whom. An amazing dribbler, Cousy could keep the ball away from defenders long enough to allow plays to develop. And when no one could get open, he'd burn opponents with outside shots or slashing drives of his own. So admired were his skills that errant behind-the-back passes in that era's city neighborhood pickup games were often met with the joust, "Who d'ya think ya are, Cousy?"
 
#6 ·
Remember point guard unlike any other position is measured by championships here's my list.

1. Magic
2. Isaih
3. Big O(somewhat of a combo guard)
4. Stockton
5. Cousy

One day Kidd is going to be mentioned with these guys.
 
#7 ·
Well, a case can be made for Stockon. It all depends on how you interpret the word "best". It "best" for you means value at the prime years, Magic wins by far. If you consider "best" as a player's whole career value, then Stockon's stock rises greatly. However, in my own personal slant, there is no question. Magic is the "best" PG in my eyes. In his career, he was always one of the top players, usually fighting Bird for that title. On the other hand, Stockon was rarely considered a top 3 player in the league. He was rarely even considered the best player on his team. John Stockon was Malone's sidekick, simply put.
 
#8 ·
Originally posted by <b>22ryno</b>!
Remember point guard unlike any other position is measured by championships here's my list.

1. Magic
2. Isaih
3. Big O(somewhat of a combo guard)
4. Stockton
5. Cousy

One day Kidd is going to be mentioned with these guys.
If it's measured by championships, shouldn't Cousy be #1 on that list?
 
#9 ·
When comparing their career averages remember because of the HIV virus Magic never played past his prime, so his career numbers are pretty accurate of his value in his prime. While Stockton played well past his prime, so his assist, scoring and steals averages went way down. Magic's averages would've went down in similar fashion but his totals would've been greater and Stockton may not have broken Magic's record.
 
#10 ·
The only thing is when I think of Magic, I dont think of a pure PG like I do Stockton
 
#11 ·
Oscar Robertson. This guy averaged a triple double for an entire season. He was NOT a combo guard, he was a point guard who had the ball in his hands every time up the floor.

The only other guy I would compare to Robertson is Magic. Maybe someone ought to ask Kareem which one was better, since he played with both of them (although Robertson was way past his prime when he went to Milwaukee).
 
#12 ·
Originally posted by <b>22ryno</b>!
Remember point guard unlike any other position is measured by championships here's my list.

1. Magic
2. Isaih
3. Big O(somewhat of a combo guard)
4. Stockton
5. Cousy

One day Kidd is going to be mentioned with these guys.
Well if you think it is measured by championships then Cousy should be #1 and Stockton shouldn't be on the list at all.
 
#13 ·
magic is considered like 5 top all time.

stockton is nowhere close.

so wh would stockton be considered better at the point?

magic is best. longevivit is irrelevant.

magic still rules man summer leagues. hiv just wasnt lettung him pla.
 
#14 ·
this post is great, i agree 100 percent...

this is about the best pg ever.... not the best pure pg, not the best big pg...

those are all vaild topics of discussion... the same way you can say

who is the best center of all time

and

who is the best power center of all time

and come up with two different people, and both be correct...
 
#15 ·
Magic is the greatest PG in the history of the league, hands down. He has a stranglehold on that claim much like MJ does for the SG position and Bird does for the SF position.

Comparing Stockton to Magic is at best a joke. He doesn't even crack my top 5 of all time.
 
#16 ·
Originally posted by <b>buduan</b>!
Comparing Stockton to Magic is at best a joke. He doesn't even crack my top 5 of all time.
I am interested to see your top 5 then, I agree that Stockton is not the greatest but he is definately in the top 5.
 
#18 ·
Payton and Kidd over Bob Cousy and John Stockton. Wow, that is just ridiculous. Cousy defined the pg position and was an amazing dribbler without having to carry the ball. Maybe you're just too uneducated to know what kind of game Cousy had. You should look it up because he had a great career.
 
#19 ·
Originally posted by <b>buduan</b>!
Magic is the greatest PG in the history of the league, hands down. He has a stranglehold on that claim much like MJ does for the SG position and Bird does for the SF position
Bird? I think Dr. J has a stranglehold on the sf position. Erving redefined the game from the moment he hit the old ABA.

Also, Bird played the 4 quite a bit. Bird was a great player-- he and MJ were the best I ever saw in the last two minutes of a close game-- but he was not the best sf. I might even rank Elgin Baylor ahead of Bird.
 
#20 ·
Originally posted by <b>allenive21</b>!
Payton and Kidd over Bob Cousy and John Stockton. Wow, that is just ridiculous. Cousy defined the pg position and was an amazing dribbler without having to carry the ball. Maybe you're just too uneducated to know what kind of game Cousy had. You should look it up because he had a great career.
I should get more educated? How cute. Tell me, what skills did Cousy have that were so much better than Kidd or Payton?
 
#21 ·
Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!


Bird? I think Dr. J has a stranglehold on the sf position. Erving redefined the game from the moment he hit the old ABA.

Also, Bird played the 4 quite a bit. Bird was a great player-- he and MJ were the best I ever saw in the last two minutes of a close game-- but he was not the best sf. I might even rank Elgin Baylor ahead of Bird.
Correction, Bird guarded the 4 often so that McHale could guard the other teams 3. He was a much better defender.

Dr. J was great, but Bird was better.
 
#22 ·
John Stockton is the best PURE point guard to ever play in the NBA. He is textbook and arguably NBA's most efficient passer ever.

However, with that said John Stockton IS NOT the best PG in the NBA. I would take several players above Stockton...

1) Magic is my favorite all-time player but that is not why I would take him above Stockton. The fact is that Magic could do more things that Stockton can. Offensively Magic is better. He could rebound more, pass just as much, score more, and rack up as many steals as Stockton. He is also stronger and can play in the post. Stockton has a better shot and is better defensively but what Magic brought on the court was much more. A PG's skill is often displayed during fastbreaks...there is no player I would have running a fastbreak other than Magic...not Cousy...not Kidd.

2) The big O...I haven't had the priviledge of watching him play but his legends and stats are incredible. He was the definition of complete. How can you argue with a TD season?

3) Isiah. Sometimes numbers lie. Stockton had better numbers than Isiah except for scoring but Isiah was much more than stats. This guy dies for his team...you never think you are ever going to lose if you play beside him. He went hard every game much like what AI does now. Isiah IMO was more valuable than Stockton ever was.

4) Jerry West. Yes I take West before Stockton. Nobody ever forgets how good of a scorer West was but sometimes people forget how good of a passer he was. West averaged over 9 apg later into his career. He is also the greatest scoring PG of all time and still owns the highest scoring average for a player over 30 with 31.2 ppg.

5) Bob Cousy...count his rings and his MVP. There have only been 3 PGs to ever win an MVP...Cousy, Oscar, and Magic.

Stockton was and is a HOF (1st ballot), great PG but I would take those 5 PGs before him. That doesn't take anything away from Stockton becuz his is clearly the greatest "textbook" PG.
 
#23 ·
Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
John Stockton is the best PURE point guard to ever play in the NBA. He is textbook and arguably NBA's most efficient passer ever.

However, with that said John Stockton IS NOT the best PG in the NBA. I would take several players above Stockton...

1) Magic is my favorite all-time player but that is not why I would take him above Stockton. The fact is that Magic could do more things that Stockton can. Offensively Magic is better. He could rebound more, pass just as much, score more, and rack up as many steals as Stockton. He is also stronger and can play in the post. Stockton has a better shot and is better defensively but what Magic brought on the court was much more. A PG's skill is often displayed during fastbreaks...there is no player I would have running a fastbreak other than Magic...not Cousy...not Kidd.

2) The big O...I haven't had the priviledge of watching him play but his legends and stats are incredible. He was the definition of complete. How can you argue with a TD season?

3) Isiah. Sometimes numbers lie. Stockton had better numbers than Isiah except for scoring but Isiah was much more than stats. This guy dies for his team...you never think you are ever going to lose if you play beside him. He went hard every game much like what AI does now. Isiah IMO was more valuable than Stockton ever was.

4) Jerry West. Yes I take West before Stockton. Nobody ever forgets how good of a scorer West was but sometimes people forget how good of a passer he was. West averaged over 9 apg later into his career. He is also the greatest scoring PG of all time and still owns the highest scoring average for a player over 30 with 31.2 ppg.

5) Bob Cousy...count his rings and his MVP. There have only been 3 PGs to ever win an MVP...Cousy, Oscar, and Magic.

Stockton was and is a HOF (1st ballot), great PG but I would take those 5 PGs before him. That doesn't take anything away from Stockton becuz his is clearly the greatest "textbook" PG.
Excellent post Doc. West played SG for much of his career though, you still consider him as a PG? I still like Kidd and Payton. Both excellent top notch defenders and passers. Kidd is the best passer since Magic and Payton is unstoppable in the post isolated.
 
#25 ·
Originally posted by <b>buduan</b>!


Excellent post Doc. West played SG for much of his career though, you still consider him as a PG? I still like Kidd and Payton. Both excellent top notch defenders and passers. Kidd is the best passer since Magic and Payton is unstoppable in the post isolated.
West often had the ball in his hands much like Oscar therefore although like Oscar at times he did not start at PG...there was no question who the real PG was on those Laker teams.
 
#26 ·
Originally posted by <b>buduan</b>!

I still like Kidd and Payton. Both excellent top notch defenders and passers. Kidd is the best passer since Magic and Payton is unstoppable in the post isolated.
I think when all is said and done and Kidd retires he should be top 5 in my books taking Cousy's place. People often forget that when Stockton played arguably he was never really considered the #1 PG. Infact when the PG position looked shallow after Isiah and Magic left some s lot of people actually considered Price and Tim Hardaway and not Stockton the best PG in the league...but that is very debatable. There is no question that after mid 90's Payton and Kidd were the top PGs. Kidd is clearly the best PG now...it was debatable between him and Payton 2 years ago. What makes Stockton magical though is his consistency and longevity. That is why he is the most consistent and effcient PG in the history of the NBA. Stockton is not really a franchise type of player but if I was to build a team which needed a leader...Stockton would be the first I offer a contract to.
 
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