I used to think that the best PG in NBA history was John Stockton. At first glance, when you look at the total numbers, Stockton is far superior to the next closest competitors which would arguably be Magic and Isiah. However, when you look at the numbers per game played, which are more significant, you quickly see that Magic was a far better and more valuable point guard. Magic was able to dominate games. Stockton was able to play within the offense and do a variety of things well, and to minimize his turnovers and to control the pace of the game. His impact was much different than Magic's.
Lets take a look at the numbers first. A lot of casual fans look at total numbers and use this to justify claims such as "best point guard ever". However, total numbers mean NOTHING except that the player was able to rack up steals and points over an extended period of time (I think this is clarified when you consider Mark Jackson is the 2nd all time in assists...its hard to argue he's one of the best 20 point guards in the history of the game). The per game numbers are the great equalizer. You have to remember that Magic played many less games than Stockton due to his illness.
So lets look at the per game numbers.
ppg - 19.5
ast - 11.19
rbg - 7.2
stg - 1.902
bpg 0.412
ppg - 13.1
ast - 10.5
rbg - 2.70
stg - 2.17
bpg - 0.21
Now, if you look at the columns, you see that the player on the top has superior numbers. The player on the top has higher totals in everything but steals (the difference is less than 1/3 a steal per game (so that's marginal), whereas, this player has higher assist per game values, and a HUGE advantage in rebounds and points per game. The player on the top is only 3 rebounds short of averaging a triple double for his career. That is an impressive feat. The player on the top is Magic.
Now, some will argue that Magic was taller, and it was easier for him to get boards. But what does that matter? This is the best point guard ever ranking thread. If we wanted to rank the best "unathletic pg" or the best "white pg" that's fine. However, if Magic has physical advantages which make him better than Stockton, then so be it. If he is built to be a better player, that's stricktly his good fortune, and something that has to be ignored.
Now, if you want to disregard these stats, you certainly can. But you can't lose sight of other things. Say you decide that the difference between the career per game stats is marginal, not a deciding factor. How about differences in such awards as MVP's, Playoff MVP's, Championships etc. etc. Magic has a clear advantage over Stockton in ALL of these categories. This is one of the things that has swayed me to believe that Magic is the best PG of all time. Stockton has NEVER won a championship. This to me seems to be a very important criteria to meet when being considered one of the best players ever. As a point guard, as the best ever, Stockton should have been counted on to lead his team to the finals more than once. Like I said above, while there was the occasional instance, night in and night out, Stockton did not take over and dominate the ball games he played in a fashion similar to Magic.
Alright you say. Championships mean nothing. MVP's mean nothing. How about playoff performance. Basketball is a team game, and maybe one player cannot win a series. But you can certainly elevate your game in the playoffs, to help your team win. Consider the numbers of Magic and Stockton in the NBA playoffs over their career. And remember, the post-season is considered to be a time when the competition is much more severe, and where it is hard to put up great numbers.
ppg - 19.5
ast - 12.35
rbg - 7.7
stg - 2.17
bpg - 0.21
ppg - 13.4
ast - 10.1
rbg - 3.30
stg - 1.86
bpg - 0.27
Magic was able to elevate his rebound, assist and steal numbers in the playoffs. Whereas, Stockton, over his career saw a decline in his assit numbers in the playoffs (however, only a very slight one), a drop in his steals pergame and a drop in his scoring. While the drops in Stocktons production are mild (really inconsequential), when constrasted to Magic's slight increases, it can be argued, that Magic raised his level of play in the post-season to a higher level than he played in the regular season, wherease Stockton showed no similar change in his game.
Ultimately, the people who claim Stockton is the greatest point guard usually base this claim soley on three things. 1. the number of total assits he has (a number inflated because of the many games he played. As we have seen, Magic averaged more assists per game. As I've said earlier...is Mark Jackson the 2nd best PG ever?) 2. the number of steals he has. (Again, inflated by his longevity. Manute Bol has a lot of blocks, but nobody would consider him one of the greatest centers of all time. While a severe analogy, steals, and while an important category, total steals should not be something someone's overall greatness is based on). 3. his longevity. Stockton has maintained such a high level of play for such a long time, this adds to his legend. This longevity has also inflated his stats.
For me however, what has changed my mind is the dominance of these two men. Stockton was unable to take over a game like Magic was. Sure he wasn't as athletically gifted (but this isn't the "best least athletic point guard" category - Magic was a pointguard, so he is measured against any others who have played the position), but he still didn't dominate the game like Magic. Magic was able to take control and lead his team. Sure Magic had better teams, but Stockton still played with Malone, a very good player. A majority of the teams which Stockton led were not bad at all.
There are just too many favorable comparisons to be made in the defense of Magic as the best ever. While I love Stockton, and I do think he's the second or at worst, third best PG ever, the statistics of Magic are too compelling to put him anywhere but first on the list.
Truthfully, I'd like to see an argument for Stockton. I like him a lot more than Magic. Actually, I really don't like Magic at all. So please, I'm not 100% set with this claim, however, I think it would take a creative and compelling argument to change my mind in any fashion.
Lets take a look at the numbers first. A lot of casual fans look at total numbers and use this to justify claims such as "best point guard ever". However, total numbers mean NOTHING except that the player was able to rack up steals and points over an extended period of time (I think this is clarified when you consider Mark Jackson is the 2nd all time in assists...its hard to argue he's one of the best 20 point guards in the history of the game). The per game numbers are the great equalizer. You have to remember that Magic played many less games than Stockton due to his illness.
So lets look at the per game numbers.
ppg - 19.5
ast - 11.19
rbg - 7.2
stg - 1.902
bpg 0.412
ppg - 13.1
ast - 10.5
rbg - 2.70
stg - 2.17
bpg - 0.21
Now, if you look at the columns, you see that the player on the top has superior numbers. The player on the top has higher totals in everything but steals (the difference is less than 1/3 a steal per game (so that's marginal), whereas, this player has higher assist per game values, and a HUGE advantage in rebounds and points per game. The player on the top is only 3 rebounds short of averaging a triple double for his career. That is an impressive feat. The player on the top is Magic.
Now, some will argue that Magic was taller, and it was easier for him to get boards. But what does that matter? This is the best point guard ever ranking thread. If we wanted to rank the best "unathletic pg" or the best "white pg" that's fine. However, if Magic has physical advantages which make him better than Stockton, then so be it. If he is built to be a better player, that's stricktly his good fortune, and something that has to be ignored.
Now, if you want to disregard these stats, you certainly can. But you can't lose sight of other things. Say you decide that the difference between the career per game stats is marginal, not a deciding factor. How about differences in such awards as MVP's, Playoff MVP's, Championships etc. etc. Magic has a clear advantage over Stockton in ALL of these categories. This is one of the things that has swayed me to believe that Magic is the best PG of all time. Stockton has NEVER won a championship. This to me seems to be a very important criteria to meet when being considered one of the best players ever. As a point guard, as the best ever, Stockton should have been counted on to lead his team to the finals more than once. Like I said above, while there was the occasional instance, night in and night out, Stockton did not take over and dominate the ball games he played in a fashion similar to Magic.
Alright you say. Championships mean nothing. MVP's mean nothing. How about playoff performance. Basketball is a team game, and maybe one player cannot win a series. But you can certainly elevate your game in the playoffs, to help your team win. Consider the numbers of Magic and Stockton in the NBA playoffs over their career. And remember, the post-season is considered to be a time when the competition is much more severe, and where it is hard to put up great numbers.
ppg - 19.5
ast - 12.35
rbg - 7.7
stg - 2.17
bpg - 0.21
ppg - 13.4
ast - 10.1
rbg - 3.30
stg - 1.86
bpg - 0.27
Magic was able to elevate his rebound, assist and steal numbers in the playoffs. Whereas, Stockton, over his career saw a decline in his assit numbers in the playoffs (however, only a very slight one), a drop in his steals pergame and a drop in his scoring. While the drops in Stocktons production are mild (really inconsequential), when constrasted to Magic's slight increases, it can be argued, that Magic raised his level of play in the post-season to a higher level than he played in the regular season, wherease Stockton showed no similar change in his game.
Ultimately, the people who claim Stockton is the greatest point guard usually base this claim soley on three things. 1. the number of total assits he has (a number inflated because of the many games he played. As we have seen, Magic averaged more assists per game. As I've said earlier...is Mark Jackson the 2nd best PG ever?) 2. the number of steals he has. (Again, inflated by his longevity. Manute Bol has a lot of blocks, but nobody would consider him one of the greatest centers of all time. While a severe analogy, steals, and while an important category, total steals should not be something someone's overall greatness is based on). 3. his longevity. Stockton has maintained such a high level of play for such a long time, this adds to his legend. This longevity has also inflated his stats.
For me however, what has changed my mind is the dominance of these two men. Stockton was unable to take over a game like Magic was. Sure he wasn't as athletically gifted (but this isn't the "best least athletic point guard" category - Magic was a pointguard, so he is measured against any others who have played the position), but he still didn't dominate the game like Magic. Magic was able to take control and lead his team. Sure Magic had better teams, but Stockton still played with Malone, a very good player. A majority of the teams which Stockton led were not bad at all.
There are just too many favorable comparisons to be made in the defense of Magic as the best ever. While I love Stockton, and I do think he's the second or at worst, third best PG ever, the statistics of Magic are too compelling to put him anywhere but first on the list.
Truthfully, I'd like to see an argument for Stockton. I like him a lot more than Magic. Actually, I really don't like Magic at all. So please, I'm not 100% set with this claim, however, I think it would take a creative and compelling argument to change my mind in any fashion.