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Kevin Love versus historical greats

8K views 82 replies 20 participants last post by  RollWithEm 
#1 ·
-Take away Rodman's rebounding and he's basically Bruce Bowen.

-Love could be like a Laimbeer and McHale on a title team. 2nd or 3rd option. You even agreed he plays like Laimbeer.

-If you put McHale on a roster like the Wolves current roster you think they'd be great? lol ok.

-I retracted the Malone comments. I admittely went overboard.

-Kareem was better than Malone.


I don't see how any of those a 'ridiculous ramblings'.

Your the one who got into the picture posting game to begin with.
 
#2 · (Edited)
To quote a relative: "Is You SERIOUS?!?!"

It shows you have no idea of evaluating players. By most accounts, those are ridiculous ramblings.

1.) Bruce Bowen wasn't a scrub. He was a top-of-the-line defender. Dennis Rodman without the rebounding acumen was an elite defender, even better than Bowen. Scrubs are guys fighting for 10-day contracts, not perennial all-NBA Defensive players.

2.) Bill Laimbeer was the fourth- or fifth-best player on the Pistons "Bad Boys" teams, depending on various stages of the team's runs.

3.) Kevin McHale (a person I actually saw play) was an all-NBA player in his prime. He was more like Kevin Garnett's all-NBA days; McHale's early career was actually undersold statistically because he was originally the sixth man on Boston's teams.

4.) Moses Malone was arguably the best player in the NBA from 1978-79 through 1982-83. Kevin Love is nowhere close to that kind of regard.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Re: Would you rather be a Boston fan or a Portland fan?

-
Take away Rodman's rebounding and he's basically Bruce Bowen.
I want to get paid for this - that's my line

-Love could be like a Laimbeer and McHale on a title team. 2nd or 3rd option. You even agreed he plays like Laimbeer.
McHale again? did you learn nothing from the previous debacle?

-If you put McHale on a roster like the Wolves current roster you think they'd be great? lol ok.
he would score about 26 ppg with fg% of about 55% maybe more - there arent post players like him anymore - he would feast on the bigs that are playing these days - just feast

-I retracted the Malone comments. I admittely went overboard.
but here you are back with the McHale comments recidivist

-Kareem was better than Malone.
you could make a fairly sound argument for Kareem being the best player ever - GOAT - so what's your point?
I don't see how any of those a 'ridiculous ramblings'.
really because - some of them are right here

Your the one who got into the picture posting game to begin with.
you're as in you are - and ps Oden's ceiling was never much more than Mutombo with few more points
 
#4 ·
In case you missed it, some of zagsfan's ridiculous ramblings:

Take away (Dennis) Rodman's rebounding and he's a scrub. Take away Love's rebounding and he's still putting up 20 pts.
(Kevin Love is) more like the Kevin McHale or Laimbeer on a title team. But, if Pippen and Kobe comparison floats your boat than so be it.
You put (Kevin) McHale on a team with a roster similar to the Wolves and I don't think they would make the playoffs. McHale wasn't the type that could carry the scoring load. He worked well in combination with other greats like Bird and Parrish. He was a great 2nd option type. Similar to Love.

... I hold McHale in the same breath as a player like (James) Worthy. Good system players, but if they were asked to carry a load and be the best player on a team, that team would struggle.
(Kevin Love) is on a Moses Malone type level in my mind. Again, a solid 2nd option on a championship level team. Same level as (Bill) Laimbeer, (Kevin) McHale, (Richard) Hamilton, (James) Worthy and such.
Moses Malone is as good as a prime Kareem? This is news to me. I think from an offensive standpoint Love has more depth to his game than Malone did. ...

Defensively they both weren't that good. Thats where the comparison draws from.

Love at 22 is without a doubt a better player than Malone was at the same age.
I also recall zagsfan20 was looking at PER to justify his equally idiotic stance that Kevin Love was on the same level as MVP-level Moses Malone and Kevin McHale. He can't come back with something factual, particularly when he's been labeled as someone who has no actual knowledge and ability to discern talent.
 
#5 ·
Personally, I think that you compare past players to present by looking how each stands relative to his peers.

McHale was obviously better than Love. He was the best PF in the league for a couple years before Barkley and Malone surpassed him. Love compared to his peers is behind a good six or seven guys right now.

My top five PF's are:

1. Duncan
2. Barkley
3. Garnett
4. Malone (Karl)
5. McHale

I penalize Hayes because he played too much of his career pre-merger and I don't count Moses as a PF.
 
#6 ·
I penalize Hayes because Im not a big fan of low efficiency high volume bigs (like for instance Kevin Love)

maybe Hayes is a good cognate for Love - except of course Hayes was good defensively and Love? well he's on the court while defense is being played around him
 
#7 · (Edited)
You can make a case that Kevin McHale was the best power forward in the NBA from 1983-84 through 1986-87. Some of his numbers were impacted by being the sixth man in Boston, mostly because the Celtics wanted to create an even greater mismatch when he came in the game.

I'll have to look back, but the only ones I would consider on his level in 1983-84 would be someone like Buck Williams, but Williams wasn't quite the offensive nightmare McHale was. McHale also was a more versatile defender. Dan Roundfield maybe, but he didn't have the length McHale had nor the size. The same holds true for Maurice Lucas.

BTW, Moses Malone was primarily known as center. He played power forward early in his career as a teen-ager, but he was moved to center once he filled out.
 
#9 ·
It's really sad that you're serious about this ****. If this was a gimmick it'd be hilarious, but seriously comparing Kevin Love to anything above roleplayers is just pathetic. Is this guy even the best player on the one of the worst teams in the league? Maybe, but Beasley is a similarly dime a dozen type player who makes a minimal impact on a team's success.

People who worship numbers without context are the worst type of tool. Love is literally nothing except numbers and rebounding numbers aren't all that important in a vacuum. There are more rebounds in basketball statistics than anything else except missed field goals...Love gets those too.
 
#14 · (Edited)
In a losing effort, once again. And once again, he ate his shot, this time getting rejected by Carmelo Anthony with 1:22 left in the game and Minnesota down by six.

In the final analysis, how does Love make this team better? This Minnesota team is not any better than the team a year ago when Al Jefferson was there as the best player.

That's the part you don't seem to understand -- Love's numbers seem to be empty numbers that don't help make the team better. Most premier players' output has an effect on the team's bottom line and/or help improve their teammates' efficiencies.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Way to overdramatize. I didn't say Kevin Love was a horrible player. He sure as hell isn't Moses Malone or Kevin McHale, though.

That's why you're being mocked and blocked. Your ridiculous comparisons and other idiotic ramblings.

Minnesota is 6-22 this year with the immortal Love as the top player. A year ago at this time, Minnesota was 5-23 with the mere mortal Al Jefferson as its top player. So if Love is supposedly on the same plane with hall of famers, then why is there virtually no improvement in the T-Wolves' fate?
 
#17 ·
So, let's summarize.

Kevin Love's post moves > Bill Russel's post moves

Kevin Loves offensive game > Bill Ruseel's offensive game

Kevin Love's defensive game > Bill Russell's defensive game

Kevin Love's rebounding > Bill Russell's rebounding

Kevin Love's passing > Bill Russell's passing

Kevin Love's blocking > Bill Russells blocking

OK we get it.
 
#18 ·
Ok seriously, I just read this post.

Take away Rodman's rebounding and you get Bruce Bowen?

Well good job buddy. Rodman was a power forward and Bruce Bowen was a SG. Both Elite top notch defenders. By the way power forwards are supposed to rebound a tad bit better than SG's. Rodman was one of the best rebounders ever and he was also one of the best defensive players ever. Bruce Bowen is a damn good rebounder even at a very old age. I really don't see what your damn point is because what you say isn't even a ****ing insult ok so get your **** straight. Bruce Bowen while he isn't your boy Kobe bending colorado girls over chairs he's a damn good player and a damn good player, I player I know the Bulls could use dearly. So ok yeah. That is nothing to be snotty about alright boy.
 
#26 ·
Kevin Love is an awesome basketball player. He could be incredibly useful as a roleplayer on a championship team. He is not going to anchor any aspect of your team though. Some players like Mutombo, Wallace, and so on will anchor a defense and instantly make a team a defensive powerhouse. Some players like Barkley, Kobe, Amare and many others can anchor a teams offense and instantly create high quality shots through themselves and through drawing defensive attention. Some legendary players can anchor both sides (Shaquille, Duncan, Hakeem, etc).

Then there are roleplayers who put up huge numbers but are clearly the type to play off someone else rather than players playing off of them. These names include a prime Shawn Marion, Andrei Kirilenko, David Lee, and so on. They are good useful players, but shouldn't be overrated.
 
#27 ·
This is as much as a bump as it is a serious discussion.

What do we see Kevin Love's ceiling as now? I have him 1a/1b with Dirk Nowitzki in a similar way as Kobe and LeBron used to be 1a/1b (I'd take Dirk/Kobe for a one year championship run, but Love/LeBron for anything else). He will probably be the best Power Forward in the league for at least the next 5 years. Despite his great numbers, I think his offensive game needs expanding and although he's not known for his defense, I don't think he's any worse than other top PFs like Dirk Nowitzki, Chris Webber, maybe even Charles Barkley.

Top 10 Power Forward of all time potential?
 
#31 ·
He has the potential, if he continues to improve massively every offseason like he has been so far, to be a top 10 PF of all-time without a doubt.
 
#32 ·
stats are nice and Love's stats are eye popping ...but it doesn't translate into winning basketball.

if people were talking about Love as a role player if his team wins it wouldn't matter but people keep putting him in the class of guys who carry their teams ...and love if he cant carry his team to anything but last place he shouldn't be included with them.
 
#34 ·
its true no one player can do it by himself,its a team game....but if people persist on comparing him out his depth (against all time greats and other top players of today ) then grade him accordingly

real stars dont get passes for missing the playoffs , they get killed for it . when garnett was a t-wolf and he missed the playoffs people really weren't concentrating on the fact that he was starting alongside mark blount , trent hassell and marko jaric and that wally szczerbiak played in just 40 games, nor was alot of attention given to the fact that he was playing on a hurt knee for most of those 2 seasons .

its life , you aren't always going to play with great players , but if you really lets say a top 10 or so player , the best at your position your team should at the very least in playoff contention(unless you are playing hurt), if you or anyone else is going to try and pit him against all time greats, the wolves shouldn't be so much worse than teams like the jazz and the suns.

its simple if Love were truly the caliber of player people are propping him up to be , his team would be be better for a number of reasons mostly interconnected .

1. he'd be a more impactful passer , thus making his teammates better or at least more useful ....but he really is not making an impact passing the ball at all. he averages 1.9 assists and has an assist ratio of 10.0 compare that to other guys in the league like al jefferson who averages 2.4 ast and 12.5 ast ratio ...and he's supposed to be a black hole.

when you compare Love to the the best of his type(high usage 4's) its rare to see numbers like that especially in face up guys who have more opportunities to pass, even a guy like dirk sports better numbers in these facets despite playing most of his career with jason kidd and steve nash (the years he didn't play with them , they were were significantly higher) guys like webber , gasol garnett, barkley , karl malone even tim duncan all have career avg. of at least 3.2 assists a game and an assist rating of 16.0 (in both cases pau gasol)

2. he'd get double teamed more because other teams saw his as such a threat and basically admit if they dont stop him they will lose , that teams dont see him as that level of threat limits his chances to pass to open teammates .

3. he is a mediocre at best defensive player , if he isn't a top tier offensive threat but not good at defense either to me he has limited value ,a good player yes, but someone who should be compared to historical greats or considered among the top players of today ...no.


on a good team or at least a team with respected offensive threats a person would have to assume his scoring averages would come down maybe significantly and with better talent possibly better rebounders , his rebounding too in the end it might allow him to be a better player but as it is 26 and 13 on a team double digit games under .500 ring as hollow numbers
 
#35 ·
The problem is that if the difference maker is a pass-only point guard who is terrible at most other aspects while coming off a major knee injury, then that is another strike against Kevin Love.

Love looks like the classic "big numbers-small impact" type player, particularly in this context in which he is being compared. There have been cases of great players playing with bad teammates, and typically those teams have been at least on the brink of the playoffs to low-level playoff teams. Minnesota was 17-65 in Love's breakout season in 2010-11 and went 26-40 in 2011-12.

In addition to what Da Grinch said, Love shoots a low percentage relative to his position. It really is inexcusable that Love is a career .449 shooter given that he has a good low-post game.
 
#37 ·
The problem is that if the difference maker is a pass-only point guard who is terrible at most other aspects while coming off a major knee injury, then that is another strike against Kevin Love.


dude, april 2012

In addition to what Da Grinch said, Love shoots a low percentage relative to his position. It really is inexcusable that Love is a career .449 shooter given that he has a good low-post game.
but if you want to get into it your point vis low % is bullshit - he's taking 5 treys a game - dont look at straight fg%, with all the treys you have to look at efg% which is actually pretty decent
 
#38 · (Edited)
Dude, april 2012
A whopping eight months ago.

It still doesn't underscore the fact that Minnesota generally is sitting deep in the lottery despite Kevin Love's video game numbers -- which is not bullshit, but a fair indicator his performance does not translate into improving his team's fate.
 
#36 ·
Kevin Love is still without a doubt the best PF in the NBA right now, which is to say a lot, but there's definitely a lot to be said about his team playing. Often times when I watch him play I see him focus a lot more on getting the rebounds than actually playing defense. It seems like his stats is the only thing he really cares about. I can remember when game when he would be camped inside waiting to try to get a rebound or an offensive one on the other end, and when he was at the perimeter, he was shouting and demanding to have the ball given to him.

Kevin Love is definitely a great player, there's no denying that, but I think the problem is that he's not an ideal teammate. That's the only reason I can think of as to why a guy that puts up the numbers that he does can't get his team to a somewhat decent record just judging by how I watch him play. It seems like he's improved with that when it comes to the offensive end, but he still plays little to no defense at all on the other end and seems to just care for the rebounds only, and so far from the games I've seen him play this season that hasn't really changed much.
 
#42 ·
Well for starters Iverson was a shooting guard. So yeah. And the point guard position in the NBA isn't nearly as important as it's made out to be, this isn't college basketball. The NBA is obviously dominated by the big man. But Kevin Love isn't a dominant big man, he's an all star level talent with superstar stats who has had a terrible year. Everyone who said he wasn't the best power forward in the league at the beginning of the season is starting to look really smart right about now.
 
#43 ·
Well for starters Iverson was a shooting guard. So yeah. And the point guard position in the NBA isn't nearly as important as it's made out to be, this isn't college basketball. The NBA is obviously dominated by the big man. But Kevin Love isn't a dominant big man, he's an all star level talent with superstar stats who has had a terrible year. Everyone who said he wasn't the best power forward in the league at the beginning of the season is starting to look really smart right about now.
His mainstay position was point guard, not shooting guard.

And a big man can't be a Lebron James, or a Kobe Bryant, or a Michael Jordan. They can't give their teams great records while being the only all star level talent on the team.

Yea, sure, the NBA is dominated by the big man, but unless we're talking fantasy league teams or something, a big man is not the most valuable kind of player to have atm, especially when you consider the lack of all star level talent centers.
 
#50 · (Edited)
Allen Iverson was a shooting guard, Eric snow was the point guard against the lakers. And Dwayne had an all nba first team center who made the all star team. You're wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App
You can bring up how good Shaq was in the regular season all you want, that still doesn't excuse the fact that he performed like shit in the finals, a fact I've noticed you continue to ignore.

And Allen Iverson was the starting PG in the finals. Only one wrong here is you.
 
#53 ·
Okay, so if Wade played with no all stars en route to the finals then I guess the 2007 Cavaliers didn't have an all star because LeBron sure as hell didn't play like an all star in the San Antonio series depite a historic preformance against Detroit. It's just a stupid argument.
 
#54 ·
Okay, so if Wade played with no all stars en route to the finals then I guess the 2007 Cavaliers didn't have an all star because LeBron sure as hell didn't play like an all star in the San Antonio series depite a historic preformance against Detroit. It's just a stupid argument.
So because Shaq was there that automatically means that he was a big reason for the Heat winning the finals that year despite the fact he literally did almost nothing at all that entire series? And you're calling my argument stupid.

No. If there were some magic move where you can drive the rim and draw a foul every time, that would make a little more sense.

It was a combination of the refs playing favorites, and Dwyane perfecting flopping.
So absolutely none of the fouls that happened on Wade were actual fouls, but were in fact Wade just flopping and the refs being stupid? (not playing favorites, enough with that idiotic crap already. There was no "playing favorites" scenario here. Don't forget there were bad calls against the Heat in that series as well, there was bad officiating for both sides. Mavs just got the worst of it).
 
#61 ·
Shaq was irrelevant in the finals. Fact. Dwayne Wade lead the team, not Shaq, fact. Antoine Walker was averaging more points than Shaq in the finals. Fact.

You can twist your words around this anyway you want to, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that you are clearly wrong when you say that Wade had an all star helping him in the finals. No one on the Miami Heat other than Wade played like an all star in that series, no one. You talking about the all star that Shaq was in the regular season doesn't change that, you of all people should know that the regular season and the playoffs are two completely different things, especially when it's the finals that we are talking about.
 
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