Thread Tools

Display Modes

**walkon4** · 05-31-2003, 02:19 PM

Listen..

I am a hardcore sixer fan, have have had season tickets since 96. Many people not in the area didnt have a clue of how bad of shape this franchise was in 1995. You couldn't give sixers seats away. It was a disaster. The there was a day in June 96..

The day Pat Croce got his hands on Allen Iverson, Philadelphia experienced the rebirth. Slowly but surely, each year the sixers got better and better. Allen Iverson is the backbone to the sixer's late 1990's franchise. He made the city. He brought back the fans. He made new fans all over the world. He made the sixers' one of the NBA's most popular teams. The "Answer" to Philly's problems was the Answer.

Here is the stupid thing about Brown. He is a idiot. I am tired of hearing people say he is the greatest coach blah blah blah. Look at the young talents he has discarded for old, overrated scrubs. Bruce Bowen didn't last long... BANG hes in the NBA Finals alongside Speedy Claxton. Matt Harpring "didn't" fit in to Brown's system.. Yikes Harpring just blew up. And look what we have to show for Brown's coaching. Tyrone Hill.. hahahahaha.. Aaron Mckie hahaha. Eric Snow.. hahahahah. They are pathetic.

As for Iverson, the trade talk is just stupid. From a fan's perspective, a marketer's perspective, and player's perspective, if you trade Iverson, you are just starting back at ground ZERO.
Here is a guy who gives more on the court physically than ANYONE in the entire NBA... And people talk about trading him? For some unproven talents. Come on. If Billy King is even thinking about that, he needs to realize his *** will be on the meal ticket line, because the entire franchise will be going down the tubes.
Billy King will be taking his chromed out Escalade to the chop shop to scrap that!!

All for one reason.. The Answer is the Answer.

digital jello · 05-31-2003, 02:34 PM

Players don't fit into coach's systems, that's just part of the game. Brown's a great coach, there's a reason he's in the HOF and is coaching the USA team this summer, he' just a terrible evaluator of young talent and he's pretty stubborn.

I agree with most of what you said, except that Eric Snow is "pathetic." He's far from it.

TheRifleman · 05-31-2003, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by digital jello!
Players don't fit into coach's systems, that's just part of the game. Brown's a great coach, there's a reason he's in the HOF and is coaching the USA team this summer, he' just a terrible evaluator of young talent and he's pretty stubborn.

I agree with most of what you said, except that Eric Snow is "pathetic." He's far from it.

And I agree with most of what you say here, except that part about Brown being in the HOF. He is there because he is a great basketball TEACHER, which doesn't necessarily translate into being great coach - a very good coach - yeah.

BigGameJames · 05-31-2003, 04:47 PM

You are very correct about McKie,Snow and Hill and that is exactly why Philly might already be down the tubes. Tell us Truth, what your solution is to the Sixers current problems. They made it to the finals which is more than alot of teams can say. It may be time to start rebuilding again, no?

**walkon4** · 05-31-2003, 05:44 PM

Sign a Quality Coach, who can evaluate talent.

Try to pick a point gaurd in the off-season with talent and experience..

Release Ty "Skelator" Hill.. send him to the pasture.

digital jello · 05-31-2003, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTruth34!
Try to pick a point gaurd in the off-season with talent and experience..

Why do you have no respect for Eric Snow?

**walkon4** · 05-31-2003, 09:05 PM

he is the worst, slowest, and least fun to watch PG in the NBA.

He has no moves, and cant shoot for his life.

he is terrible for a starter in the NBA

bbendone · 05-31-2003, 09:13 PM

Philly needs to get Andre Miller, & PJ Brown OR Alonzo

I cant imagine A.I. in another Jersey other than A Sixers Jersey

**Mongolmike** · 05-31-2003, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bbendone!
Philly needs to get Andre Miller, & PJ Brown OR Alonzo

I think the Philly management has already made it's decision about who is or isn't leaving Philly.... they've decided Brown goes, and AI stays. I don't think it is anymore complicated than that.

Like The Truth34 said, AI is the be-all and end-all for the 76er's. As long as he can lace them up and play at the high level he does, he's the man.

As for bbendone.... I really don't think they want Andre Miller. I've seen enough of him in CLev, and I do not think he will work well with AI. I think in the right spot Miller can be effective, but he is not a push-it-up PG, he is a work-it-in type. AI likes to push it, or create on his own, Miller tends to hold onto the ball and work it in, or back his man down. Wrong styles.

Now if SA was to get Miller, I think Miller would work well with Duncan. And Parker might just work pretty good with AI.

BigGameJames · 05-31-2003, 10:31 PM

I don't think point guard is their biggest worry. They seem to have more than one weak link in Philly. Allen Iverson is an unbelivable talent, this is obvious, but he needs alot more help than he is getting if Philly wants to contend for the East.

robyg1974 · 06-01-2003, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheTruth34!
...As for Iverson, the trade talk is just stupid. From a fan's perspective, a marketer's perspective, and player's perspective, if you trade Iverson, you are just starting back at ground ZERO.
Here is a guy who gives more on the court physically than ANYONE in the entire NBA... And people talk about trading him? For some unproven talents. Come on. If Billy King is even thinking about that, he needs to realize his *** will be on the meal ticket line, because the entire franchise will be going down the tubes.
Billy King will be taking his chromed out Escalade to the chop shop to scrap that!!

Dude, you gotta look at Philly's financial situation, if you look at that financial situation, you realize immediately why Larry Brown left, why Brown was ENCOURAGED to leave, why Philly is in big BIG trouble, why Iverson will soon be one extremely unhappy camper. Here's an earlier post that explains Philly's financial situation and why Kenny Thomas and Derrick Coleman will both be allowed to walk this summer:

Quote:

Originally posted by robyg1974!
Take a look at Philly's payroll situation, it's not pretty:

http://www.nbazone.net/teams/View_Salary.asp?TId=7

Let's say they let Monty Williams go, that reduces the 2003-04 payroll to $56.5 mil. Matt Geiger does not count for luxury tax purposes, so their taxable payroll is at $47.1 mil. Let's say they let Derrick Coleman, Tyrone Hill, and Brian Skinner walk (they will, you know), and that they replace them with two minimum salary guys, that bumps their payroll up to $47.9 mil. Now IF they bring back Kenny Thomas at MLE money, that puts their payroll at $52.4 mil. That means that they go over the luxury tax threshold. No question, they'd love to have Kenny Thomas back at, say, $3 mil, but for $4.5 mil, that just screws up their numbers too much. By re-signing Thomas, they miss out on all that luxury tax reimbursement money. Ask yourself, is Kenny Thomas worth $15-$17 mil (and maybe a little more) next season? Of course not. That's why he's probably a goner.

If Philly is not going to bring back Thomas, they could always bring back Derrick Coleman instead, at a reduced price, say, just under $3 mil. But that still puts the payroll for next year at $50.9 mil, which is cutting it awfully close. I think they'd rather bring in an el-cheap-o big guy or two, instead, in order to keep payroll closer to $49-$50 mil.

Now, if you're not going to bring back either Thomas OR D.C., if you are going to let all of your free agents walk, if the most that you are willing to spend to replace basically your entire frontcourt is about $2-$3 mil... well, how many games can you possibly win? You just lost your head coach, the best basketball coach on the planet, and you have lost your only two frontcourt scorers... how many games can you possibly win? Take a look at this crap:

Starting lineup

PG Eric Snow
SG Allen Iverson
SF Greg Buckner
PF Keith Van Horn
C Samuel Dalembert

Key reserves: Aaron McKie, Efthimios Rentzias, John Salmons, Sam Clancy

I mean, seriously, who can you get for $2-$3 mil who can really make much of a difference up front? Jake Voskuhl? Mike Batiste? Reggie Evans? Jerome Moiso? Gary Trent? Vladimir Stepania? Corie Blount? Mamadou N'Dyaie? You know what I'm saying, Todd? Add one or two players from that list, and you're STILL talking about a team that will struggle to finish at .500, a team that will have quite a few unhappy campers.

However, if Philly makes this deal, they are going to be able to reduce their payroll in 2004-05 from about $50 mil to closer to $42-$43 mil, that's a huge difference, they will actually be able to afford to spend their entire MLE next summer and not really worry about the luxury tax! Furthermore, they'll be able to get Todd MacCulloch removed from the salary cap, he won't count for luxury tax purposes, as long as Philly can get league doctors sometime during the 2004-05 season to declare him physically unfit to resume playing (which they will). That knocks your 2004-05 payroll down even further, by another $6 mil! Keith Van Horn's contract is obviously a nightmare, but what can you really do about it? Not much!

Let's say Philly makes this deal, they will have their payroll in order, and they get something incredibly valuable for Iverson. They will absolutely positively suck next season, no question, take a look:

Starting lineup

PG Eric Snow (40 mpg)
SG Richard Hamilton (40 mpg)
SF Greg Buckner (32 mpg)
PF Keith Van Horn (40 mpg)
C Samuel Dalembert (24 mpg)

Key reserves: John Salmons (20 mpg), Zeljko Rebraca (20 mpg), Michael Curry (12 mpg), Darko Milicic (12 mpg)

End of the bench (no PT): Hubert Davis, Efthimios Rentzias, Sam Clancy

Pretty terrible, we're talking about a 20-25 win team here, but they stay under the luxury tax threshold, they get something REALLY REALLY GOOD for Iverson NOW rather than waiting for his value to decline as the losses pile up and as he becomes more and more disgruntled (and, to be fair, as he continues to get older). Donnie Darko = MAJOR COMMODITY. If Philly is committed to rebuilding, and they are, then this is a fantastic trade for them. They will add another high lottery pick to the fold after NEXT season, and they should be good to go in the long run, but the immediate future, not looking good, with or without Iverson.

Anyway, I hope I've demonstrated that Philly is in pretty bad shape, that they were in pretty bad shape longterm even BEFORE Brown was encouraged to leave, and that, now that he's gone, they are in even WORSE shape than before. This team is in desperate need of a rebuild, and Darko Milicic, obviously a fantastic way to begin, talk about a potential superstar!

When you look at it this way, from a collective bargaining agreement perspective--and I cannot believe that any of you guys ignore CBA stuff, there's no way and I mean NO WAY that you can really have any idea about what's going on in today's NBA if you don't understand the nuts-and-bolts stuff--then Iverson-to-Detroit makes way more sense. Look, I understand that nobody puts fans in the seats more than Iverson does. But I also understand that an extremely unhappy and thoroughly disgusted Iverson is only going to cause problems, especially when ownership refuses to make the moves that will be necessary to placate him.

Why am I the only person on the planet who realizes why Brown left Philly? Why am I the only person on the planet who realizes what Jeff Van Gundy and everybody else keep turning down that job? If you were Larry Brown, and management told you that they weren't going to let you re-sign Thomas OR D.C. this summer, that the most you could spend on free agency was around $2-$2.5 mil TOTAL, AND if they told you that the REASON why you could only spend $2-$2.5 mil TOTAL is because of all of your terrible TERRIBLE GM moves over the past few years, wouldn't you quit? If you are Jeff Van Gundy, and you are totally an East Coast guy, you totally don't want to leave the East Coast, you totally want a high profile East Coast coaching job, and Philly calls you up in the wake of the Brown departure, don't you think to yourself, "Good god, now THAT is the job I WANT right there!"? Of course you do! So why did JVG turn that job down pretty much instantenously? Why do you think? It's because that's not a good job right now. Why isn't it a good job? Why do you think? Because they're getting ready to rebuild!

I was telling all those Portland fans about a month ago to brace themselves for the rebuilding process, and they wanted to shoot me! Now I'm telling you Philly fans to brace yourselves for the rebuilding process, and I'm sure you guys want to shoot me, too! But get ready, because it's going to happen! Even if they don't trade Iverson, they're going to lose Thomas and D.C. this summer, and take another look at the frontcourt guys who are left:

Keith Van Horn, Samuel Dalembert, Efthimios Rentzias, Sam Clancy.

Dear GOD, that is TERRIBLE! Easily the worst frontcourt situation (i.e., PFs and Cs, I'm not counting SFs here) in the league next year! EASILY! How can you not want to go ahead and officially kickstart the rebuilding process if that's what your frontcourt is going to look like? How can Philly possibly prevent Allen Iverson from shooting everybody in the front office if that's all he has to work with next year?

ANOTHER option, IF Philly wants to get a guy who will FOR SURE put fans in the SEATS, is to make this deal with Detroit for the #2 (and Richard Hamilton), and THEN to turn around and make a deal with DENVER for the #3. What can Denver do for Philly? He won't want to cough up Nene Hilario, obviously. I suppose he could cough up Nikoloz Tskitishvili. Rodney White, nothing special. Juwan Howard in a sign-and-trade? The BEST thing Denver could do for Philly is to bail the Sixers out on KVH's contract. How about this:

Donnie Darko (#2 pick) and Keith Van Horn to Denver for Carmelo Anthony (#3 pick) and Marcus Camby (two years left on his contract, makes way less than KVH, about $8 mil less, I believe).

And yes, I do believe that Kiki is so crazy about Donnie Darko that he makes this move. If Donnie Darko ends up being as good as people think he'll be, Kiki won't regret this move, either.

This gets Philly's 2003-04 TAXABLE payroll, payroll that counts for salary cap purposes, down to around $40 mil, which means they can easily re-sign Kenny Thomas, they can match a MLE offer ($4.5 mil), plus they can bring back D.C. at a market value deal (around $3.5 mil, probably), plus they get Carmelo, who will totally put people in the seats from Day One. Philly has ended up trading Iverson and the terrible contracts of Van Horn and McKie for Carmelo Anthony, Richard Hamilton, Marcus Camby, and some expiring contracts, take a look at Philly's revised 2003-04 roster:

Starting lineup

PG Eric Snow (36 mpg)
SG Richard Hamilton (40 mpg)
SF Carmelo Anthony (32 mpg)
PF Kenny Thomas (40 mpg)
C Derrick Coleman (28 mpg)

Key reserves: Greg Buckner (20 mpg), John Salmons (16 mpg), Samuel Dalembert (16 mpg), Efthimios Rentzias (12 mpg)

End of the bench (no PT): Michael Curry, Hubert Davis, Zeljko Rebraca

Stashed on the IR: Marcus Camby (I have ZERO FAITH in this guy's ability to stay healthy for very long at this point), Sam Clancy

Despite the terrible bench, this Philly team should probably contend for a playoff spot in the East, maybe they'll sneak in at #7 or #8, which is impressive when you consider they have lost the two guys who most people cconsider to be unreplaceable, PLUS they have created a financially sane payroll, the two worst contracts all of a sudden are Eric Snow and Greg Buckner, Snow's contract really isn't all that bad (although I do think trading him to a contender for a younger guy and preferably some contracts that expire within a year or two is a good idea), and Buckner's contract, well, that's a bad contract because of the number of years that are left on it (five, FIVE!), but he doesn't get paid THAT much money (maybe you can package him with Eric Snow somehow, I don't know). Philly has rebuilt their team, they've achieved financial sanity amazingly quickly, and they are still probably a playoff team, and, in the long run, they will go as far as Carmelo can take them. Philly fans will never and can never and SHOULD never forget Iverson, but they will certainly love Carmelo, that's for sure.

BobbyDigital32 · 06-01-2003, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by robyg1974!

Dude, you gotta look at Philly's financial situation, if you look at that financial situation, you realize immediately why Larry Brown left, why Brown was ENCOURAGED to leave, why Philly is in big BIG trouble, why Iverson will soon be one extremely unhappy camper. Here's an earlier post that explains Philly's financial situation and why Kenny Thomas and Derrick Coleman will both be allowed to walk this summer:

When you look at it this way, from a collective bargaining agreement perspective--and I cannot believe that any of you guys ignore CBA stuff, there's no way and I mean NO WAY that you can really have any idea about what's going on in today's NBA if you don't understand the nuts-and-bolts stuff--then Iverson-to-Detroit makes way more sense. Look, I understand that nobody puts fans in the seats more than Iverson does. But I also understand that an extremely unhappy and thoroughly disgusted Iverson is only going to cause problems, especially when ownership refuses to make the moves that will be necessary to placate him.

Why am I the only person on the planet who realizes why Brown left Philly? Why am I the only person on the planet who realizes what Jeff Van Gundy and everybody else keep turning down that job? If you were Larry Brown, and management told you that they weren't going to let you re-sign Thomas OR D.C. this summer, that the most you could spend on free agency was around $2-$2.5 mil TOTAL, AND if they told you that the REASON why you could only spend $2-$2.5 mil TOTAL is because of all of your terrible TERRIBLE GM moves over the past few years, wouldn't you quit? If you are Jeff Van Gundy, and you are totally an East Coast guy, you totally don't want to leave the East Coast, you totally want a high profile East Coast coaching job, and Philly calls you up in the wake of the Brown departure, don't you think to yourself, "Good god, now THAT is the job I WANT right there!"? Of course you do! So why did JVG turn that job down pretty much instantenously? Why do you think? It's because that's not a good job right now. Why isn't it a good job? Why do you think? Because they're getting ready to rebuild!

I was telling all those Portland fans about a month ago to brace themselves for the rebuilding process, and they wanted to shoot me! Now I'm telling you Philly fans to brace yourselves for the rebuilding process, and I'm sure you guys want to shoot me, too! But get ready, because it's going to happen! Even if they don't trade Iverson, they're going to lose Thomas and D.C. this summer, and take another look at the frontcourt guys who are left:

Keith Van Horn, Samuel Dalembert, Efthimios Rentzias, Sam Clancy.

Dear GOD, that is TERRIBLE! Easily the worst frontcourt situation (i.e., PFs and Cs, I'm not counting SFs here) in the league next year! EASILY! How can you not want to go ahead and officially kickstart the rebuilding process if that's what your frontcourt is going to look like? How can Philly possibly prevent Allen Iverson from shooting everybody in the front office if that's all he has to work with next year?

ANOTHER option, IF Philly wants to get a guy who will FOR SURE put fans in the SEATS, is to make this deal with Detroit for the #2 (and Richard Hamilton), and THEN to turn around and make a deal with DENVER for the #3. What can Denver do for Philly? He won't want to cough up Nene Hilario, obviously. I suppose he could cough up Nikoloz Tskitishvili. Rodney White, nothing special. Juwan Howard in a sign-and-trade? The BEST thing Denver could do for Philly is to bail the Sixers out on KVH's contract. How about this:

Donnie Darko (#2 pick) and Keith Van Horn to Denver for Carmelo Anthony (#3 pick) and Marcus Camby (two years left on his contract, makes way less than KVH, about $8 mil less, I believe).

And yes, I do believe that Kiki is so crazy about Donnie Darko that he makes this move. If Donnie Darko ends up being as good as people think he'll be, Kiki won't regret this move, either.

This gets Philly's 2003-04 TAXABLE payroll, payroll that counts for salary cap purposes, down to around $40 mil, which means they can easily re-sign Kenny Thomas, they can match a MLE offer ($4.5 mil), plus they can bring back D.C. at a market value deal (around $3.5 mil, probably), plus they get Carmelo, who will totally put people in the seats from Day One. Philly has ended up trading Iverson and the terrible contracts of Van Horn and McKie for Carmelo Anthony, Richard Hamilton, Marcus Camby, and some expiring contracts, take a look at Philly's revised 2003-04 roster:

Starting lineup

PG Eric Snow (36 mpg)
SG Richard Hamilton (40 mpg)
SF Carmelo Anthony (32 mpg)
PF Kenny Thomas (40 mpg)
C Derrick Coleman (28 mpg)

Key reserves: Greg Buckner (20 mpg), John Salmons (16 mpg), Samuel Dalembert (16 mpg), Efthimios Rentzias (12 mpg)

End of the bench (no PT): Michael Curry, Hubert Davis, Zeljko Rebraca

Stashed on the IR: Marcus Camby (I have ZERO FAITH in this guy's ability to stay healthy for very long at this point), Sam Clancy

Despite the terrible bench, this Philly team should probably contend for a playoff spot in the East, maybe they'll sneak in at #7 or #8, which is impressive when you consider they have lost the two guys who most people cconsider to be unreplaceable, PLUS they have created a financially sane payroll, the two worst contracts all of a sudden are Eric Snow and Greg Buckner, Snow's contract really isn't all that bad (although I do think trading him to a contender for a younger guy and preferably some contracts that expire within a year or two is a good idea), and Buckner's contract, well, that's a bad contract because of the number of years that are left on it (five, FIVE!), but he doesn't get paid THAT much money (maybe you can package him with Eric Snow somehow, I don't know). Philly has rebuilt their team, they've achieved financial sanity amazingly quickly, and they are still probably a playoff team, and, in the long run, they will go as far as Carmelo can take them. Philly fans will never and can never and SHOULD never forget Iverson, but they will certainly love Carmelo, that's for sure.

I would just like to say that you are a genius. How do you come up with this stuff?

HBK826 · 06-01-2003, 02:09 AM

Thats great and all but if the salaries don't match up the deal won't work. The have to be within like 3 mill of eachother (or so) under NBA rules.

carayip · 06-01-2003, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HBK826!
Thats great and all but if the salaries don't match up the deal won't work. The have to be within like 3 mill of eachother (or so) under NBA rules.

I have yet to see a Roby's trade which doesn't match in salaries!

HBK826 · 06-01-2003, 03:07 AM

If I'm wrong I apologize, but how do Camby and Van Horn match up salary wise if one makes 8 million less than the other?

Thread Tools Display Modes

Thread Tools

Display Modes