[Seuss]

This is voting for which team will secure the #1 seed in the Eastern conference.

Toronto Raptors Team:

PG: Chauncy Billups
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Grant Hill
PF: Larry Nance
C: Dikembe Mutumbo

BENCH: Antonio McDyess, Rashard Lewis, Dana Barros, Zelmo Beatty, Brent Barry

Indiana Pacers Team:

PG: Magic Johnson
SG: David Thompson
SF: Chris Mullin
PF: Dolph Schayes
C: Bill Russell

BENCH: Tom Chambers, Mark Jackson, John Starks, Jalen Rose, Michael Cage

[Sunsfan81]

Clearly the Pacers. The Raptors shouldn't even have won their division. Indiana has a MONSTER advantage at PG, PF, and center. That's enough to beat Toronto, who does have Jordan who is much better than Thompson, and Hill who is better than Mullin, but certainly not enough to overcome Indiana's major advantages in the other three positions. And both benches are about equal, neither is very good aside from Zelmo and Chambers.

[BadBaronRudigor]

Actually the advantage at PF is with the Raptors. Schayes was a great player in his day with his toughness and ability to draw fouls but his shooting wasn't impressive then and certainly isn't impressive now. Nance, on the other hand, was a great shooter and one of the top 10 shotblockers of all time (the one one of the top 10 who wasn't a center).

[Knick_Killer31]

Uhh Dolph Schayes was well known for his shooting actually. He also averaged 13 rebounds per game. I wouldn't exactly give the Raptors the advantage at PF.

[tkb]

Schayes wouldn't be close to 13 rpg in todays pace though.

Anyway, i vote for the Raptors. Love the makeup of that team.

[Sunsfan81]

Originally Posted by BadBaronRudigor

Actually the advantage at PF is with the Raptors. Schayes was a great player in his day with his toughness and ability to draw fouls but his shooting wasn't impressive then and certainly isn't impressive now. Nance, on the other hand, was a great shooter and one of the top 10 shotblockers of all time (the one one of the top 10 who wasn't a center).

Uh no way. Schayes by a mile. Schayes was a 12-time All-NBA player, and a 12-time All-Star. Larry Nance was a good player but won't sniff the Hall of Fame. Dolph destroys him and scoring and rebounding. Schayes finished in the top 10 in scoring and rebounding 11 times. Nance never did. I'll give the edge to Nance defensively.

[Sunsfan81]

Originally Posted by tkb

Schayes wouldn't be close to 13 rpg in todays pace though.

Irrelevant. He was a great rebounder. Finished in the top 10 in rebounding 11 times.

[tkb]

I'd rather have Nance personally. He's a far better shooter, better defensive player, and a comparable rebounder and scorer when pace adjusted (you have to look beyond raw averages). I'd rather have Nance especially on a team with Magic and Russ.

[Sunsfan81]

I seriously wonder how one can vote for the Raptors here. Jordan can't overcome three major disadvantages by himself.

[tkb]

Originally Posted by Sunsfan81

Irrelevant. He was a great rebounder. Finished in the top 10 in rebounding 11 times.

Yeah, and Bill Bridges ca 1971 was a better rebounder than Kevin Garnett ever was.

[Sunsfan81]

Originally Posted by tkb

I'd rather have Nance personally. He's a far better shooter, better defensive player, and a comparable rebounder and scorer when pace adjusted (you have to look beyond raw averages). I'd rather have Nance especially on a team with Magic and Russ.

Nance was nowhere near the player Schayes was, not even close. I look at how a player dominated in his time, and Schayes was far superior to Nance. Hardly anyone would call Nance a legend. Schayes is.

[Sunsfan81]

Originally Posted by tkb

Yeah, and Bill Bridges ca 1971 was a better rebounder than Kevin Garnett ever was.

Bridges wasn't a better rebounder than Garnett, but he was a hell of a rebounder.

[tkb]

His raw average that season suggests that. Isn't that what we're using to see how good rebounders are here?

Never mind that Garnett has lead the league four years in a row and has a RbR that blows out Bridges.

Unfortunately we don't have RbR's for more than Schayes' last season. That year he averaged 12.6 rp40 (usually at around 14.0 per 40) and had a RbR of 11.8. Id you bump that up a couple units for his prime were looking at a RbR of around 14-15. Nance was usually in the 13-15 range, so i don't think it's unfair at all to say that Nance was a comparable rebounder to Schayes.

[Sunsfan81]

Originally Posted by tkb

His raw average that season suggests that. Isn't that what we're using to see how good rebounders are here?

Never mind that Garnett has lead the league four years in a row and has a RbR that blows out Bridges.

Unfortunately we don't have RbR's for more than Schayes' last season. That year he averaged 12.6 rp40 (usually at around 14.0 per 40) and had a RbR of 11.8. Id you bump that up a couple units for his prime were looking at a RbR of around 14-15. Nance was usually in the 13-15 range, so i don't think it's unfair at all to say that Nance was a comparable rebounder to Schayes.

I never said Bridges was a better rebounder than Garnett, but he was an excellent rebounder.

If you go by rebound rate then Chamberlain is only the 9th best rebounder. Bill Russell, who knows, it doesn't say, but he's probably behind Bill Dudley who's ranked 11th.

[tkb]

We're still lacking over half of Chamberlain's career when it comes to rebound rate. And even then you have to concider that 3-4 of the guys over him played low to mid 20 mpgs which has to be concidered too. They produced a bit more per minute when they played, but since Wilt could produce about the same for almost double the minutes per game while also taking a heavy load on offense i'd give the nod to him over a lot of the guys in front of him.

You're left with pretty much Dennis Rodman, Moses Malone and Bill Walton. I dropped Ben Wallace down because of lack of offensive responsibilities. This of course goes for Rodman as well, but his numbers are just too sick to ignore (Wallace only has a slight lead over the numbers we have for Chamberlain). The Worm blows everyone out when it comes to RbR so he has to be up there.

Say Wilt's career RbR jumps up 0.6 if we had all the numbers for him. That would place him second to Dennis Rodman (Russell would be in the picture also) among 30+ mpg players. Is that ranking really that unfair?