kbdullah

I just find it really odd Republicans would do this. You should have the right to defend yourself if you think you're being robbed, but when you have a law specific to law enforcement, it sounds like you're granting the right for people to shoot at police even if the shooter realizes the intruders are officers. And police should be forced to identify themselves - kick in the door, yell that you're the police, and tell the person to put their hands up.

e-monk

tea party/nra element of the party what?

Ron

The exaggerated rhetoric in this post causes a credibility issue.

Of course there has been police abuses, but its far from the norm. This bill is ill-advised, to put it mildly.

Ron

Really?

"Your" people? Since when did we transport back to the '60s?

E.H. Munro

The law was about restoring the fourth amendment in Indiana, and this is really what's pissing the police off. After the Indiana Supreme Court ruled that the fourth amendment didn't protect individuals from unreasonable searches the police have been given free reign to harass the citizens. And that's really what the bill is about, reinforcing the old principle that the fourth amendment is a prior restraint on the actions of government, and not a grounds for a civil suit after the fact.

The section of the bill that everyone is making a stink about certainly doesn't legalise the wanton murder of police officers, it simply recognises that there are times and places where people defend themselves from home invaders, and they shouldn't face the death sentence because of a police error (nearly all of the cases where this happens involve the police showing up at the wrong address to serve one of those 3am no-knock warrants). In cases where you have an actual drug offender who is being properly served they're still going to be charged with murder.

The town of Hudson Hew Hampshire, whose violent crime last year consisted of three drunk guys getting into fights, wants to waste taxpayer dollars on its own armoured assault vehicle and the heavily armed SWAT team to go with it. Why the **** does Hudson NH need an AAV and a dozen guys with AR-15s? Ain't no riots there. No large violent criminal syndicates.

There's no way to reasonably deny that police departments across the country are being overly militarized, and once they have the hardware they always want to use it, even if there's no need. In Framingham Mass, in just the last year, a seventy something year old was gunned down, accidentally, by the local Keystone SWAT when someone "accidentally" discharged a firearm into the chest of an innocent man.

That story isn't rare, it's actually pretty common. Framingham is another locale that has zero need of SWAT teams, but because they have them they need to justify their existence and send them out on routine calls that are just as easily, and far more safely, performed by regular officers.

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If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

Ron

No, those stories are pretty rare, and they are anecdotal. There is no statistical analysis to back up your rhetoric.

As far as police departments getting assault vehicles and SWAT teams, if there is a need, the federal government actually pays for the equipment out of the USDOJ/US Treasury asset forfeiture funds, which are collected from (you guessed it) dopers' ill-gotten gains.

The particular police department has to justify the need, and its a rigorous process. So if that police department is able to justify the need, they get the equipment.

There is also equipment supplied for terrorism activities. I don't know how the US-DHS projects the need for particular police departments, but it is my understanding there is a process involved there as well.

Diable

My Mom said the paperwork wasn't that bad, but all she got was a couple of M-16's and some body armor. I think maybe some communications gear too.

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E.H. Munro

Actually there's an entire book about the phenomenon by Radley Balko. So you're wrong on this one. SWAT teams are increasingly common in small jurisdictions that have no need of them and SWAT teams are increasingly used to serve mere search warrants (and this is also a statistical reality) because jurisdictions that don't need them have them and have to give them something to do. And having a bunch of heavily armed trigger happy wannabe soldiers serve warrants dials up the danger of these situations unnecessarily.

Does it matter from which level of taxpayer funds the money's being wasted? Small New Hampshire towns have zero need of armoured assault vehicles and SWAT teams and any money from the treasury spent on it is a complete and utter waste.

Really? Because a small town in New Hampshire, with no actual violent crime, apparently passed this "rigorous process". The city I live in managed to get the federal government to fund a $250,000 mobile anti-terrorism command vehicle through a similar "rigorous process". And there's never been a terrorist incident in the city. And while the city used to have a very large Arabic population (prior to the Cuban, Boricuan and Dominican waves of immigration), they were all Lebanese or Egyptian and all Maronites or Copts (to this day there are Maronite Catholic and Coptic Churches in Lawrence). No terrorism. No terrorists. Drugs? Yes. Terrorists? No.

(I've discussed this before, but you've apparently missed it. I come from a cop family, my grandfather, great grandfather, and great great grandfather were all Lawrence PD, as well as two great uncles, and one uncle. I also have eight cousins that I know of that work for police departments across the Merrimack Valley. I actually do know how it works.)

__________________
If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

R-Star

Why do you guys honestly waste your time?

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ChosenFEW

wtf are you pussies so ****ing scared of. Police are supposed to be here just to enforce the laws, not be above them.

this is a progressive move towards self policing which I find to be better. every man is capable of being corrupted and many policemen (from my experience) seem to think they are above the law.

a ****ing murderer is going to kill someone regardless if this bill is in place or not.

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R-Star

Self policing? In which case what? You wouldn't need any police, just have everyone armed with guns?

That makes sense. I mean, policemen are prone to corruption, but the average man with a gun? Straight as an arrow. There's no flaws to this stupid, ridiculous plan.

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ChosenFEW

The fact that police will be held accountable for their actions is what i was getting at.

You can just look at the reason that there is for the most part no crazy world wars going on. Pretty much everyone has a nuclear bomb at their disposal yet noone wants to step on anyones toes because they dont want to blow the planet up.


israel could destroy palestine right now if they wanted to. They dont because shit is going to get ugly if they do.

I am not advocating that every joe blow be given a gun on his 18th birthday, but everyone should be allowed to go through a process in order to arm and protect themselves.


you guys act like its so hard to get a weapon as it is right now. if someone is a killer then he's a killer. no law is going to change that.

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E.H. Munro

So you think that when an innocent person fires at an armed intruder in the middle of the night he should face the death penalty because a police clerk wrote the wrong address on a warrant? (These are the actual circumstances the bill covers.)

__________________
If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

Ron

Statistical data? Or just more stories? Because I am sure there are hundreds of instances throughout time of police abuse, but it doesn't signal a trend...there has to be statistical data in the majority in order to support the rhetoric, which thankfully you didn't exhibit in this post.

The asset forfeiture funds are not supported by taxpayer dollars. They are wholly self-sufficient, and are supported by forfeiture of ill-gotten gains.

I thought you knew this stuff. I didn't state the obvious in my previous post.

As I said before, I don't know how the DHS works; I don't know how they determine which cities get anti-terrorism equipment; I didn't work there.

I know your family history. But its all anecdotal. I was a law enforcement officer for over 21 years, and retired 4 years ago. I have seen first-hand how this shit works. And I am telling you the vast majority of law enforcement officers are good people who want to do the right thing.

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R-Star

I love how you write obscure cases and make them out to be common place.

For someone who hates Fox news, you'd sure get along just fine working there EH.

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