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Old 11-06-2012, 05:22 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

This is not collateral damage
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:33 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

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This is not collateral damage
Oh, I thought you were denying it.

Whatever the label or method, it still causes civilian deaths. If they didn't ID their targets with a drone, they'd do it another way.

The practice of reducing people to numbers from a war room has been in place for a long time, since before anyone here was born. If the US gov. won't keep themselves from doing that, they might as well do it the cost-effective way.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:39 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

It is deliberately killing civilians without due process. Not bombing a factory and getting some civilians in the process as acceptable casualties.
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Old 11-06-2012, 05:54 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

I don't think it matters to the people who see the bodies.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:58 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

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His own accord? Okay. So in the time Barack Obama has been POTUS, from 2008 to now, he not only demanded the creation of, but oversaw development, and enacted the drone program on his own accord? All in <4 years?
Well, yes. But that wasn't what we were talking about. Obama created, implemented, and has fought for a presidential kill list, which includes the names of American citizens. Not even Shrubya argued that his personal judgment satisfied the constitutional requirement of due process.
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:18 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

Bush abandoned any ideal of legal basis above personal judgment when he threw the Geneva Conventions to the wind in opening Guantanamo Bay. As Hobbes has insinuated, this is no new phenomenon.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:00 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

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Bush abandoned any ideal of legal basis above personal judgment when he threw the Geneva Conventions to the wind in opening Guantanamo Bay. As Hobbes has insinuated, this is no new phenomenon.
It is entirely a new phenomenon. Open assassination of American citizens by an American president without trial is 100% new. And as an Obama Dance Squad member you are equally guilty.
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Old 11-07-2012, 10:33 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

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And as an Obama Dance Squad member you are equally guilty.
Seriously E.H.? I'd rather not go down that road again.
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:50 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

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It is entirely a new phenomenon. Open assassination of American citizens by an American president without trial is 100% new. And as an Obama Dance Squad member you are equally guilty.
Just because someone is American, doesn't mean they should be put on a pedestal. If someone is a threat to public safety, they need to be killed.

I know you and I would both agree that Obama is a war criminal, like many presidents before. Difference is you abstained, and I voted for him because I didn't see an alternative.

If Obama thinks ignoring due process and committing murder is an effective way to save the lives of many American citizens, I'm with him. War is a horrible thing that turns people into statistics, but we're in it now. Let's be pragmatic.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:49 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

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Just because someone is American, doesn't mean they should be put on a pedestal. If someone is a threat to public safety, they need to be killed.
No, they do not. And they should not be summarily executed without benefit of a trial.
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Old 11-08-2012, 10:22 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

I get your point but I disagree, because I think saving lives is more important than due process.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:23 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

...We have a constitution for a reason. It is a direct violation of U.S. law, international law, and every ****ing law.

Last edited by Dornado; 11-09-2012 at 12:26 PM. Reason: just a little over the line...
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Old 11-09-2012, 07:27 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

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I get your point but I disagree, because I think saving lives is more important than due process.
Yeah, you know, we didn't accept that excuse at Nuremberg, the Romanians didn't accept that excuse from the Ceausescus or their cronies, I see no reason to accept it from American presidents. The sad truth is that Obama has been worse than Shrubya on civil liberties, and thanks to his cheer squad we're going to become a permanent police state where the voters willfully delude themselves into believing that they're free because they get to participate in a WWE-style event every few years. Welcome to Rome, watch out for the fires, enjoy your stay.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:15 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Re: Paul Ryan is a flip-flopper

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The sad truth is that Obama has been worse than Shrubya on civil liberties, and thanks to his cheer squad we're going to become a permanent police state where the voters willfully delude themselves into believing that they're free because they get to participate in a WWE-style event every few years. Welcome to Rome, watch out for the fires, enjoy your stay.
Yeah, you know, with 'polemics' like this, you do understand that you belong under a tree somewhere writing political poetry as opposed to offering what you believe to be genuinely objective political views while labeling posters "Obama cheer squad members". I know the type of people you're speaking of. I encounter them daily and mentally sigh every time they open their mouths. Every politician has that supporting cast. The people that, whether through their own ignorance or societal acclimation, view any and every issue as two-sided. To them, truth is two-sided and their is no possibility that it is round. And they're out there. So get used to it, and in the meantime stop assuming everybody you encounter on the internet who doesn't agree with you and your vision of George W. Bush (a man who spent 8 years ignoring the existence of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, a man who passed an abortion act, a man who sanctioned the opening of Guantanamo) having a superior legacy of promoting civil liberties than Barack Obama. You're looking at a very narrow definition of civil liberties if that is an argument you are actually willing to make. And based off your spew as of late, you just really love to hate Obama, E.H. It's fascinating to me. You're like this case study of a man who denounces everything and uses that principle to hide behind a firewall and pick and choose talking points he wishes to make his, on topics and vantage points that you actively choose to make your own.

So go on, continue with your ramble which is often informative and well-conceived, but be sure to withhold any urge to label me or any other poster an "Obama cheer squad member" when you very well know that I have explained to you before that that is not the case. Differing viewpoints do not insinuate that another person is what you deeply wish to label them. You can only try something once. After that, you're doing it. Don't do it again.
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