R-Star

Pardon? If you're having trouble, try not to argue when its over your head.


"Hey look at that! He must mean its because of the drop in union participation that the recession happened!" Uhhhh no. Sorry.


The recession is pretty simple. People were buying houses they couldn't afford with money they didn't have, maxing out credit cards, buying new cars ever couple of years, trying to live the American dream. Sooner or later having the whole civilized world living far beyond their means has to come to a crashing halt.


There's blame to go around everywhere. But as per usual the rich get blamed.

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Ron

Total bullshit.

Education counts for something. If you quit high school, or even finish high school, and do nothing else to further your education, you are going to end up shoveling Twinkies and baking shit...or vice versa, and its no one else's fault but your own.

I was a union member years ago and also a union steward. I witnessed first-hand all the games that are played, and also played them myself as a steward. I know all about unions and I know they can be valuable at times and at other times be a nuisance.

This time, they did wrong. If you can't admit that, you are being blind here.

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Dornado

Where did that number come from (a legitimate question, not fishing for anything)?

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Nimreitz

Oh, so you were just bringing in a completely new argument without explaining what you were talking about. Cool.

Ron

His prior argument was that they were planning liquidation all along and it is clear from the filing that was not the case.

Even the judge agreed that in order for the company to remain solvent, these court orders (excuse me, approvals) reducing salary had to be implemented.

Instead, the union decided to strike, and kill all 6,000 members jobs and 12,500 others. I see you still haven't addressed the layoffs, nor do I expect you to.

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Nimreitz

On the other hand, it is absolutely in society's best interest to pay these people more than they are technically worth.

Ron

8% + 92% = 100%

100% represents a lost job.

So instead of accepting 8% pay cuts as ordered (approved) by the court, they decided to accept 100% pay cuts by foolishly striking their jobs away.

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Dornado

So people without an education should work for shit wages? Shouldn't be able to put food on the table? Do you realize how crazy that is in a country where college is prohibitively expensive?

They could learn a trade - but guess why plumbers/electricians/other skilled trades make decent wages? Unions.

I am in a Union and I represent thousands of Union employees... and I don't "play games". What you did with your position is your own deal.

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Nimreitz

Address what, exactly? That 12,000 people lost their job because of 6,000 people? That is unfortunate for them, but every union has to look out for its members and not society as a whole or even other unions. That's not their job. If they did that they would probably be breaching a fiduciary (or union equivalent) duty. I feel bad for the 12,000, that really sucks. But it's not the fault of any union, as I have said repeatedly this is the fault of a couple hedge funds who squeezed Hostess.

These folks will probably start making twinkies again when the brand is sold.

R-Star

I believe in minimum wage laws because otherwise you would find someone to sweep your floors for $5 an hour.

The average menial laborer needs to have the government mandate an amount of money that someone can scrape by on.


I also worked in other industries growing up. When I got out of highschool I researched and saw for trades welders were the highest paid, so I set about going to work in that industry. After working 3 or 4 years in the industry and not getting to where I wanted, I made a career change. I didn't join the local trades union and demand they take care of business for me.

If all of the sudden my industry takes a dive and companies decide I'm worth only half of what they used to pay me, that's their prerogative. If the threat of losing me as a worker doesn't change that, it will be up to me to find another field of work that will pay better. The Oil and Gas industry owes me nothing.

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Dornado

I can do basic math, thank you... I was looking for where the 8% came from, thanks.

Also, saying "ordered" and "approved" like they're the same thing doesn't change the fact that they aren't. One would be a court telling the employees they had to take something... the other would be a court certifying that the parties were at an impasse and that the employer could implement what they wanted with the understanding that the employees could now legally strike. Pretty big difference.

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R-Star

"Levels the playfield"?


Listen here, comrade, but I don't think the shit shoveler, or the twinkie baker should be on a level playing field with me.

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Ron

Of course you play games.

If you are in a union leadership position, you have to.

You are not only encouraged, but required (lest you be sued) to proactively argue bullshit grievances from disgruntled employees. You know they don't have a change in hell of "winning" such grievances, but you file them anyway in order to avoid getting sued by the idiot employee. And you have to argue their merits, if the grievance has any, which invariably it doesn't.

I got into union stewardship back in the 1980s in the government because I wanted to stand up for workers' rights. But what I found was an imbedded political machine that resolved such grievances (and legitimate ones as well) through negotiation tactics that would make my grandmother turn in her own grave if she knew.

So don't condescend me, Dornado. I know exactly what goes on in union negotiations. No one leaves the room clean.

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Ron

8% was the court ordered reduction in salaries.

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Dornado

I mean between employer and employee. There will always be more people than jobs... it is the same concept that you just sited for supporting a minimum wage...

The minimum wage is $7.25 an hour here. Assuming you work 40 hour weeks that's $15,080 a year. You cannot support a family on that wage... hell, one could barely support themselves on that wage.

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