Bogg

What they intend to do and what they'll eventually have to do are two different things. They won't be able to keep the entire West Bank, and they're already out of Gaza, but they can assert a stranglehold on Jerusalem and the areas immediately surrounding it.

Hyperion

How much land does Israel need to give up for peace? Is there an acreage that they can give and then there is peace between Israel and Palestine? The rate at which Palestinians are having children, they'll be as densely populated as Bangladesh within a birth rate of more than 100,000 per year in an area the size of Delaware of 2400sq miles, which has a total population of less than a million people.


Israel isn't much larger at just over 8000 sq miles, just smaller than New Jersey and at double the population.

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Diable

How is this relevant? Do you want to ship the Palestinians to China and impose a one child policy on them? Either the Israelis are serious about Peace or they are serious about keeping everything. So far it is clear that the only thing the Israelis will give up is Peace. They haven't negotiated in a decade and the entire time they have been stealing more land and building more settlements all to create a situation where Peace can not be made unless the Palestinians give up everything.

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Hyperion

So you take the stance of "What have they given up lately?"

You probably don't agree with the wall that they put up or the checkpoints or probably even going into Gaza and the West Bank with their military at all. So discussing the merits of Israel's intentions on peace seem to be pretty pointless with you. Did you know that more than 2500 rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza and many of them were containing white phosphorus (a war crime) in this past year? But that's fine, because they don't like their situation because Israel is oppressing them with heightened security from the more than 600 rockets launched in 2011, or the 360+ rocket and mortars launched in 2010. They did only fire a few dozen rockets into Israel during 2008-09 during their ceasefire after launching hundreds. But yeah, Israel is the aggressor and doesn't want peace because they have a few homes in the West Bank (nowhere near Gaza). All told, since 2001 more than 4800 rockets have been fired into Israel during peacetime.

But poor Palestinians who are forced out of their undeveloped lands when developers want to build there. Rather than bitch and moan and say they can't live there, just say, they can, but that is Palestine. No, no, no, no, they must destroy those homes!

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"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...."

"The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly"

Diable

How many of those rockets were launched from the West Bank? That's about the lamest defense of Israel's quest for Lebensraum that I have ever seen and it's not like they don't have armies of apolegists who see this conflict based on the interests of countries that are not the United States of America. I want to know why we are supporting the things that Israel has done. These things you are defending are crimes under United States law and International law. We are participating in those crimes, but we gain nothing positive from it.

If the Israelis and Palestinians want to perpetuate this stupidity until the end of time they can do it without any help from the United States and without the United States taxpayer carrying the burden of oppressing a bunch of destitute people. As far as I am concerned the Palestinians have every right to kill any Israeli in the Occupied Territories. That's legal if you do it under the rules of War actually, because the Israelis have no legal right to be there beyond the power of their guns.

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E.H. Munro

As they're still building West Bank settlements today the answer is obviously none. Of course, neither are they getting peace, but they don't want peace. They want to demolish what's left of the Palestinians.

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MemphisX

Yes.


I mean, come on...

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Nimreitz

Oh my god, could you imagine the right wing if this happened?

Bogg

Israel gave Gaza to Hamas and has done their best to make them the face of the Palestinian movement precisely to elicit responses like this. So long as "All Palestinians = Hamas" in the mind of enough people, Israel has a blank check to do what it wants in the West Bank. If Israel had any real intention of allowing a moderate, peaceful Palestinian state to be set up they'd be doing everything in their power to prop up Abbas as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

You do understand that Israel is going to insist on any Jewish settlements in previously Muslim lands are going to fall under the governance of Israel, and won't allow any of them to become exclaves, right? Settlement activity by Israel is equivalent to the government throwing down and Israeli flag and claiming "This is ours now!"

Both sides have done awful things to each other, but Israel's catching flak in this thread because they're the one occupying what is supposed to be a foreign nation on the grounds that it's necessary for national security, while repeatedly making antagonistic and counterproductive actions toward the occupied people. Hamas needs to go, they're a resistance force that isn't going to be able to govern on an international stage, but that doesn't give Israel free reign to do whatever they want in another country.

R-Star

The response from Jewish people in threads like this disgust me.

"They weren't using the land so we took it. Big deal."

Hopefully Hyperion isn't anything like KAS, who just started calling anyone who disagrees with him an anti semite last go around.

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E.H. Munro

Sad thing is that they were using it, Israel just took it anyways.

__________________
If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

Hyperion

You do understand that Israel does NOT want Hamas in charge of Gaza right? Hamas was elected by the Gazans. I fail to see how the Zionist regime did this. It's almost funny though, Israel gives up land for peace, doesn't get peace, but can't get its land back. Terrorist government fires rockets into civilian populations and are considered innocent people. This is pathetic, these arguments for a free Palestine are pathetic because if they bordered any other country, genocide would have happened by now. Russia? China? Iran? USA? They all would have slaughtered all insurgents and the neighbors who let them be insurgents.


Are the Israelis being dicks right now with the whole settlement thing? Yes, and if I were in the UN, I would just state that if Israel wants to improve the infrastructure of Palestine by developing real estate, then they are more than welcome to do so with approval. However, firing white phosphorus rockets into towns are not political statements, those are acts of war.

__________________
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...."

"The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly"

R-Star

I like how we talk about rockets and fail to mention Israel has not only fired its own, but the death toll of both military and civilian's staining their hands is far worse.

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R-Star

Ah whatever. I rescind my comments. This subject always gets far too touchy, and no one changes their stance.

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Hyperion

Don't even attempt to compare the two.

__________________
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...."

"The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly"