E.H. Munro

See, you're trying to call me a team red pom pom girl, when I despise team purple in all its forms. If the US had "fiscal conservatism" during the paradigm shift it wouldn't be in the mess it's in today. Aagain, go back to the Reagan years, his economic advisers lobbied him to let congress spend every dime it wanted and encourage them to spend more just to speed up the day that the financial apocalypse arrived. By the time Clinton was president congress was hooked on all the "benefits" of free spending. The simple fact is that the narrative about tax revenues falling during the Shrubya years is a myth. Tax revenues hit their zenith in 2007 (in real dollars). The problem was all the corporate welfare (because, at its heart, that's all the war stimulus is, corporate welfare) soaking up every dime in revenues and then some.

Contra Diable's angry rant, those "responsible republicans" aren't "putting the interests of the nation first" any more than Harry Reid, Chuckie Schumer or Nancy Pelosi. If the country goes over the fiscal cliff, there will be real cuts in corporate welfare, which is what the panic's all about.

None of them give a shit about you, individually or collectively. All you are to them is grist for the mill of capitOlism. You want it to end? Tell Warren Buffet he can keep his penny ante taxes and to get his lazy ass off welfare. Of course Buffet's willing to pay a few more million in taxes to protect the billions his companies get from the government. But **** Buffet, I don't want another $20 million from him, I want him to get off the dole.

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If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

e-monk

not calling you anything - stating what happened - I know you try to hold yourself above the parties - if anything I'd fault you for making false equivalencies between the two parties and taking a peanut gallery POV while washing your hands of the whole process

E.H. Munro

But if you were tating what happened you'd be focused on the massive stimulus spending of the last dozen years. That's where the problem lies. Revenues are pretty predictable, if the economy is in good shape tax revenues come in at 18%-19%. So all you need to do is keep spending under that and everything is fine. Problem is that all these guys want to spend like drunken sailors on shore leave in a Hong Kong whorehouse.

__________________
If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

Mr. Hobbes

His dad was the VP of Polaroid.

I wondered this too.

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don't edit me bro

e-monk

stimulus spending was situational on an emergency basis not a matter of long term policy but the on-going cut in rates/and subsequent drop in revenues were all part of the larger problem

and more to the point the surplus that started this discussion between was already long gone by the time 2009 rolled around

E.H. Munro

Stimulus spending has been the US government's long term economic plan since 1930. About the only blip on the screen was the actual deregulatory era of 1978-1982 when some minor bits of corporate welfare went away. But the last 30 years has been one massive Johnson/Nixon era stimulus program. That's the problem.

EDIT: Here's a useful illustration of the problem

__________________
If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

kbdullah

Where does the 100 Trillion dollar number in that graphic come from?

e-monk

out of his ass - let's see the 'over what amount of time' bit that might be a little more informative

and while we're at it the president hasnt proposed a tax hike, he's proposed allowing the bush tax cuts which were always supposed to be temporary to expire (for 2% of the population) finally

it's typical pub boilerplate to call this a hike


here's a scenario: you make a deal with a guy, he says let's try this for 3 months to address short term issues, after 3 months we'll go back to 'normal', it's a temporary short term deal

3 months pass you go to the guy and say 'alright mission accomplished' let's go back to 'normal' and he looks at you funny and says 'I will never raise taxes!' and you go 'but you said this was temporary and a short term fix' and he says 'NEVER!'

and are you the one who is crazy? or is he a bald faced lying mother****er who called something 'temporary' and agreed in principle to a fixed life term and then after getting what he wanted completely reneged and changed the terms of the deal like the lying scum bag mother****er he is?

E.H. Munro

Talk to the Concord Coalition, that's the best guess at the moment as to the size of the US structural deficit compared to the solution to the alleged solution to the problem. Given the government's history of projecting its public health care expenditures it's probably conservative.

__________________
If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

JonMatrix

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dylan-..._b_922881.html

Old video, but it's still relevant. Dylan Ratigan gets pissed and reveals the truth. He put the number a bit lower than $100 trillion, but he still had it way higher than the $16 trillion we've all heard on TV. It's interesting to see how shocked the panel looks.

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"I'm from America,our names don't mean ---- here"-Bruce Willis in Pulp Fiction

Never underestimate the ability of stupid people in large groups.

E.H. Munro

$16 trillion is the current national debt. $100 trillion is the best guess that anyone has at the 75 year structural deficit. And it's a guess because everyone knows the health care spending projections are full of shit, but no one knows how full of shit they are. And the other elephant in the room is the question about the impact that spiraling interest payments will have on GDP, and hence on tax revenues.

__________________
If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

Diable

Then your numbers are shit, because the 1 trillion from the letting the Bush era tax cuts expire on the top 2% are over the next ten years. Of course what you're talking about is just some scare the dolts number that other crazy people invented.

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E.H. Munro

No, unlike you the people doing the forecasting are actual economists. The whole marginal rate obsession is boob bait for bubbas of the team blue variety. The truth is that if they're lucky the economy will grow enough to expand revenues by one trillion. But if the economy continues to suck like angry Obamacons it won't make a difference. But idiots will feel better, which is more important, I guess.

__________________
If everyone loves you you're doing it wrong.

"Opium is the religion of the masses." Fred Reed

The Power of 99 Press

"He thinks it's going to be fun being governor. It's only fun being governor of New York if you have money to spend, and I spent it all." Nelson Rockefeller on his successor, Hugh Carey.

Diable

SO you put 75 years on one side and 10 years on the other, then you tell us that one is the same as the other. We all know that you worship your nuttier than thou opinion, so I won't bother though.

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e-monk

so yeah, as pointed out (and as I guessed) 75 years worth of debt on one side of the ledger and 10 years worth of 'solution' on the other -- that's a little what? dishonest?

and while we are at it what part of the president's 'solution' are we talking about here? what is his 'solution'? they wouldnt be characterizing the entirety of his 'solution' as just letting the bush breaks lapse right? because wouldnt that also be a little um? dishonest? wouldnt make them lying scumbag mother****ers?