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Old 12-26-2012, 09:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

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JERUSALEMIsrael's policy on issuing guns is restrictive, and armed guards at its schools are meant to stop terrorists, not crazed or disgruntled gunmen, experts said Monday, rejecting claims by America's top gun lobby that Israel serves as proof for its philosophy that the U.S. needs more weapons, not fewer.

Far from the image of a heavily armed population where ordinary people have their own arsenals to repel attackers, Israel allows its people to acquire firearms only if they can prove their professions or places of residence put them in danger. The country relies on its security services, not armed citizens, to prevent terror attacks.

Though military service in Israel is compulsory, routine familiarity with weapons does not carry over into civilian life. Israel has far fewer private weapons per capita than the U.S., and while there have been gangster shootouts on the streets from time to time, gun rampages outside the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are unheard of.

The National Rifle Association responded to the Dec. 14 killing of 20 first-graders and six adults at a Connecticut elementary school by resisting calls for tighter gun control and calling for armed guards and police at schools. On Sunday, the lobby's chief executive, Wayne LaPierre, invoked his perception of the Israeli school security system to back his proposal.

"Israel had a whole lot of school shootings until they did one thing: They said, `We're going to stop it,' and they put armed security in every school and they have not had a problem since then," LaPierre said on the NBC News show "Meet the Press."

Israel never had "a whole lot of school shootings." Authorities could only recall two in the past four decades.

In 1974, 22 children and three adults were killed in a Palestinian attack on an elementary school in Maalot, near the border with Lebanon. The attackers' goal was to take the children hostage and trade them for imprisoned militants.

In 2008, another Palestinian assailant killed eight young people, most of them teens, at a nighttime study session at a Jewish religious seminary in Jerusalem. An off-duty soldier who happened to be in the area killed the attacker with his personal firearm.

Israel didn't mandate armed guards at the entrances to all schools until 1995, the Education Ministry said more than two decades after the Maalot attack and two years after a Palestinian militant wounded five pupils and their principal in a knifing at a Jerusalem school.

Israel's lightly armed school guards are not the first or the last line of defense. They are backed up by special police forces on motorcycles that can be on the scene within minutes again bringing out the main, but not the only, difference between the two systems.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor spelled it out.

"We're fighting terrorism, which comes under very specific geopolitical and military circumstances. This is not something that compares with the situation in the U.S," Palmor said.

Because it is aimed at preventing terror attacks, Israel's school security system is part of a multi-layered defense strategy that focuses on prevention and doesn't depend on a guy at a gate with a gun.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...schools-claim/
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

What in the name of god is a terrorist if not a disgruntled person? Are they seriously trying to tell us that their terrorists are lighthearted good humoured killers? And as every male and female has to serve in the armed forces that whole "We only let our soldiers have guns" line is disingenuous at best. Unless, of course, this is their oblique way of stating "We don't let those stinky Arabs have guns, only we Jews are armed".
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:26 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Following that logic, terrorist = disgruntled person PLUS political motivation, purpose and/or sponsorship

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Old 12-27-2012, 07:33 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

But the same is, more or less, true of anyone motivated enough to go out and commit a mass killing. Best evidence suggests that only about 3% of the population is capable of this sort of violence, and most of those are employed by the police & military, so does it really matter why? Someone that can kill children via random violence is someone that can kill children via random violence whether his internal justification is "My government said so!", political liberation or that his mother served him cold coffee and warm Cheerios that morning.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:36 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

Mostly they are dismissing the notion that everyone in Israel is walking around with an M-4 and that Israeli schools rely on armed guards for protection. The Israelis rely upon the same sorts of police organizations that we do, but since they have a smaller country and a greater threat it is a bit more sophisticated and they have a more integrated system. It's probably roughly equivalent to what they do in New York City. I forget what the NYPD calls it though.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:45 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

Every soldier is required to have a gun, every Israeli is required to be in the military. You do the math. And they can "dismiss the notion that Israeli schools rely on armed guards for protection" all they want, but the schools all have armed guards for protection.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:23 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

You argue some weird shit sometimes EH.

How can one ignore the context of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict when discussing this topic?
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:46 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

OK, does it really matter why someone would kill a bunch of kids when we're discussing people that would willingly kill a bunch of kids? I mean this is akin to the claim "Our child murderers are completely different!"
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:52 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

I think the more relevant point was that Isreal's infrastructure to prevent/stop mass shootings goes far beyond armed guards on site, and to attribute any success they've had simply to those guards is oversimplifying to the point of becoming incorrect.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:03 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

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Originally Posted by E.H. Munro View Post
OK, does it really matter why someone would kill a bunch of kids when we're discussing people that would willingly kill a bunch of kids? I mean this is akin to the claim "Our child murderers are completely different!"
Ok... are you really arguing that we should have armed guards in our schools because the Israelis do it? Are they our model now? Nearly everything the Israelis do on this front is shaped by that dispute, that was my point.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:04 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

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Ok... are you really arguing that we should have armed guards in our schools because the Israelis do it? Are they our model now? Nearly everything the Israelis do on this front is shaped by that dispute, that was my point.
No, I'm arguing that the article is entirely disingenuous. Which it is.

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I think the more relevant point was that Isreal's infrastructure to prevent/stop mass shootings goes far beyond armed guards on site, and to attribute any success they've had simply to those guards is oversimplifying to the point of becoming incorrect.
Except that's not what the CBS writer is saying. The only mention of the Israeli police state is in the middle of the article, but, again, this really is irrelevant. When we're discussing people that can do this sort of thing (because, again, best evidence suggests that only around 3% of the population is capable of this sort of violence), why does the actual reason matter? Even the writer doesn't ultimately believe that the reason matters because the reason in Newtown was mental illness, and that gets swept aside.

I will grant that they could just be ignorant as they don't seem to understand that they're discussing security with a government official from South Africa Lite (Less Apartheid! More killing!). Of course the gun laws are restrictive, for the Arabs. But that's another discussion for another day. The claims of the article are still specious at best and disingenuous at worst.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:12 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

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Except that's not what the CBS writer is saying. The only mention of the Israeli police state is in the middle of the article, but, again, this really is irrelevant.
The way I read it, the fact that their security/emergency response protocols are far more extensive than armed guards was the whole point. I'm not even debating the whole Israeli/Palestinian thing, I'm just pretty sure you're taking a secondary point in the article and making it out to be the entire purpose of it.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

No, I'm mocking the silliness of the quote from Israeli officials in paragraph one and that keeps getting referred to throughout the entire article. So if it's a secondary point it's a secondary point in the very odd position of being at the marquee and throughout the entire piece.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:22 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

Can we all agree that LaPierre was wrong, at least?
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:25 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Israel rejects NRA's guns-in-schools claim

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Originally Posted by E.H. Munro View Post
No, I'm mocking the silliness of the quote from Israeli officials in paragraph one and that keeps getting referred to throughout the entire article. So if it's a secondary point it's a secondary point in the very odd position of being at the marquee and throughout the entire piece.
Eh, fair enough, but in my mind, this was the meat of the article:

Quote:
Israel never had "a whole lot of school shootings." Authorities could only recall two in the past four decades.

...

Israel didn't mandate armed guards at the entrances to all schools until 1995, the Education Ministry said more than two decades after the Maalot attack and two years after a Palestinian militant wounded five pupils and their principal in a knifing at a Jerusalem school.

Israel's lightly armed school guards are not the first or the last line of defense. They are backed up by special police forces on motorcycles that can be on the scene within minutes again bringing out the main, but not the only, difference between the two systems.
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