[ProudBFan]

Seriously. Can you guys please take this line of discussion to PMs? You're not shedding any new light on the topic, or providing anything here to cause anyone to think about it in a different way. Just "you said", "you did", "you're ticking me off". That can (and should) be handled via PMs.

IMO.

PBF

[sa1177]

Originally Posted by ProudBFan

Seriously. Can you guys please take this line of discussion to PMs? You're not shedding any new light on the topic, or providing anything here to cause anyone to think about it in a different way. Just "you said", "you did", "you're ticking me off". That can (and should) be handled via PMs.

IMO.

PBF

Yet you are still reading this thread when it's clear who made the last post in it...? Why?

[ProudBFan]

Originally Posted by sa1177

Yet you are still reading this thread when it's clear who made the last post in it...? Why?

To keep asking you two to get a room, of course.



PBF

[chromekilla]

Hey Sa,
since u say ww2 was fought against"genocide and occupational agression" then why didn't we go into the war before that instead of when the japanese attacked us?

[sa1177]

Originally Posted by ProudBFan

To keep asking you two to get a room, of course.



PBF

Sometimes it's fun to watch a trainwreck...as TH's and my conversations sometimes become.

[Talkhard]

Okay, okay . . . back to the main topic at hand. Here's an interesting read on what the Iraqis think of Zarqawi's death.

"I hope his death will be a new page for Iraq," said baker Zuhair Yassin, 25. "He can burn in hell."

Isa Younis, a 66-year-old retired teacher, said: "I thank God and the Iraqi government for this huge gift. I don't know how I'm going to celebrate but I know that this is the happiest day of my life."

"I'm overjoyed. God willing this will be the end of all terrorists. I hope Iraq can now begin to stabilise now this pig is dead," said Qeysar Ahmed, a Baghdad shop owner . . .

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/interna...=1149773058000

[ProudBFan]

Isa Younis, a 66-year-old retired teacher, said: "I thank God and the Iraqi government for this huge gift. I don't know how I'm going to celebrate but I know that this is the happiest day of my life."

Yeah. The Iraqi government had a lot to do with dropping those bunker-busters on Zarqawi's head. God, I won't argue.

PBF

[Blazer Ringbearer]

Originally Posted by sa1177

Iraq is already a failure IMO..no point in "hoping" for it.

I think what TH took issue with was the giggling about Iraq being a failure - I know I did.

If at the end of the day, we fail in Iraq, and we are forced to leave and the country falls back into the hands of another ruthless dictator or totalitarian regime or if all out Civil War breaks out, then that would be a very sad day in Iraqi and American history.

You're right, a lot of people have died. But if you care so much about it, I don't see why you're laughing.

It's not funny.

The fate of millions of Iraqis and thousands of American soldiers being at risk isn't a laughing matter.

Regardless of who you voted for or what color your hair is, it's crucial that we get things right in Iraq. We're in way too deep to quit now, and have way too much invested in time, money and the lives of Americans and Iraqis both to have a defeatist attitude.

A good thing happened today. Many bad things have happened, but that's life, and all we can do is learn from our mistakes, move on, work hard and hope for the best.

[sa1177]

I was laughing at the mere suggestion that anything about Iraq has been a "sucess" because IMO that arguement is simply laughable. I apologize if it was taken any other way because that certainly was not my intent.

Originally Posted by Blazer Ringbearer

I think what TH took issue with was the giggling about Iraq being a failure - I know I did.

If at the end of the day, we fail in Iraq, and we are forced to leave and the country falls back into the hands of another ruthless dictator or totalitarian regime or if all out Civil War breaks out, then that would be a very sad day in Iraqi and American history.

You're right, a lot of people have died. But if you care so much about it, I don't see why you're laughing.

It's not funny.

The fate of millions of Iraqis and thousands of American soldiers being at risk isn't a laughing matter.

Regardless of who you voted for or what color your hair is, it's crucial that we get things right in Iraq. We're in way too deep to quit now, and have way too much invested in time, money and the lives of Americans and Iraqis both to have a defeatist attitude.

A good thing happened today. Many bad things have happened, but that's life, and all we can do is move on, work hard and hope for the best.

[sa1177]

Some excerpts from a interview with Michael Bergm father of American business man Nicholas Berg who was beheaded by Al Queda in a gruesome video released on many Islamic websites in 2004. Many people believe it was Abu Al Zargawi who was pictured beheading Nicholas Berg.

Please note that I do not agree with some of what Mr. Berg has to say and think that at some points he is misguided by what happened to his son, but I do believe his insights into the issue are quite relevant and telling.

O'BRIEN: Mr. Berg, thank you for talking with us again. It's nice to have an opportunity to talk to you. Of course, I'm curious to know your reaction, as it is now confirmed that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the man who is widely credited and blamed for killing your son, Nicholas, is dead.

MICHAEL BERG: Well, my reaction is I'm sorry whenever any human being dies. Zarqawi is a human being. He has a family who are reacting just as my family reacted when Nick was killed, and I feel bad for that. (Watch video of the two bombs falling on al-Zarqawi -- 2:00)

I feel doubly bad, though, because Zarqawi is also a political figure, and his death will re-ignite yet another wave of revenge, and revenge is something that I do not follow, that I do want ask for, that I do not wish for against anybody. And it can't end the cycle. As long as people use violence to combat violence, we will always have violence.

O'BRIEN: No, no. And we have spoken before, and I'm well aware of that. But at some point, one would think, is there a moment when you say, 'I'm glad he's dead, the man who killed my son'?

BERG: No. How can a human being be glad that another human being is dead?

O'BRIEN: There have been family members who have weighed in, victims, who've said that they don't think he's a martyr in heaven, that they think, frankly, he went straight to hell ...

You know, you talked about the fact that he's become a political figure. Are you concerned that he becomes a martyr and a hero and, in fact, invigorates the insurgency in Iraq?

BERG: Of course. When Nick was killed, I felt that I had nothing left to lose. I'm a pacifist, so I wasn't going out murdering people. But I am -- was not a risk-taking person, and yet now I've done things that have endangered me tremendously.

I've been shot at. I've been showed horrible pictures. I've been called all kinds of names and threatened by all kinds of people, and yet I feel that I have nothing left to lose, so I do those things.

Now, take someone who in 1991, who maybe had their family killed by an American bomb, their support system whisked away from them, someone who, instead of being 59, as I was when Nick died, was 5-years-old or 10-years-old. And then if I were that person, might I not learn how to fly a plane into a building or strap a bag of bombs to my back?

That's what is happening every time we kill an Iraqi, every time we kill anyone, we are creating a large number of people who are going to want vengeance. And, you know, when are we ever going to learn that that doesn't work?

O'BRIEN: There's a theory that as they try to form some kind of government, that it's going to be brutal, it's going to be bloody, there's going to be loss, and that's the history of many countries -- and that's just what a lot of people pay for what they believe will be better than what they had under Saddam Hussein.

BERG: Well, you know, I'm not saying Saddam Hussein was a good man, but he's no worse than George Bush. Saddam Hussein didn't pull the trigger, didn't commit the rapes. Neither did George Bush. But both men are responsible for them under their reigns of terror.

I don't buy that. Iraq did not have al Qaeda in it. Al Qaeda supposedly killed my son.

Under Saddam Hussein, no al Qaeda. Under George Bush, al Qaeda.

Under Saddam Hussein, relative stability. Under George Bush, instability.

Under Saddam Hussein, about 30,000 deaths a year. Under George Bush, about 60,000 deaths a year. I don't get it. Why is it better to have George Bush the king of Iraq rather than Saddam Hussein?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...iew/index.html

[sa1177]

And so it continues...

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Al-Qaida in Iraq confirmed the death of its leader, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and vowed it will continue its ``holy war'' in a statement posted on the Web on Thursday.

``We want to give you the joyous news of the martyrdom of the mujahed sheik Abu Musab al-Zarqawi,'' said the statement, signed by ``Abu Abdel-Rahman al-Iraqi,'' identified as the deputy ``emir'' or leader of al-Qaida in Iraq.

``The death of our leaders is life for us. It will only increase our persistence in continuing holy war so that the word of God will be supreme,'' it said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlates...872681,00.html

[Dan]

Thats why I think it would've been better to capture him. If you kill our leader, chances are as good you'll want revenge, as you'll grow weaker.

maybe even higher that you'll want revenge.

It's nice to have the group run around like a chicken with it's head chopped off, but that probably won't last long. And think about it..had we not decided that Iraq was involvde with 9-11...er..I mean, implied it was...er..I mean....wmd...er..I mean, whatever the hell the reason was...and instead gone after OBL like we SHOULD HAVE, it's doubtful that Zarqawi would be anyone that we give a **** about.

we're creating more damage and enemies than we had before. bravo.