[sa1177]

Originally Posted by yakbladder

Some of you need to put down the rose colored glasses.

You know, it's one thing to support our troops, I'm all for that. But it's quite another to become so ignorant about a cultural and political situation that you REFUSE to even see anything other than clear-cut shining victory. This is not Americans vs. Hilter. This is not one clearly good side against one clearly evil side. There isn't even a 38th parallel.

Sunnis and Shias have been quarreling now for thousands of years. This isn't just going to be a "can't we all just get along" moment. Do they co-exist in other countries? Yes. But typically only through brutually repressive means. Now on top of that you've completely disenfranchised millions of Iraqis who had previously disenfranchised the other millions. This isn't just going to "go away in a couple of years". Throw in the Kurds who probably don't even care if the nation breaks up because then they really would have their own country (although Turkey would come knocking on their door shortly thereafter).

It's great to think that you'll form some unifying army of mixed ethnicities and religions who band together to keep Iraq free and everyone is happy and rainbows and all that. But many of them will still identify with regions, with religions, and they've probably, much like the police, been infiltrated to some extent by militia members. Education right now is mostly done in religious institutions whose motto does not include the words "Tolerance for all!".

The country right now is not in all-out civil war but in the areas where the two meet (Sunnis and Shias) it's about as close as you can get without a declaration. Within a year after the American forces leave, all of this resentment is going to boil over again and there is going to be some serious bloodshed.

Stop thinking that overnight, or even over the course of one generation, you're going to transform these people into the beacon for Westernized thought-processes and actions. It is not going to happen.

Well said...and this is why IMO it's time for our troops to leave Iraq. Their presence there in the current amount isn't effective, these people are not going to change whether U.S. troops are present or not.

[chromekilla]

Originally Posted by yakbladder

Sunnis and Shias have been quarreling now for thousands of years. This isn't just going to be a "can't we all just get along" moment. Do they co-exist in other countries? Yes. But typically only through brutually repressive means. Now on top of that you've completely disenfranchised millions of Iraqis who had previously disenfranchised the other millions. This isn't just going to "go away in a couple of years". Throw in the Kurds who probably don't even care if the nation breaks up because then they really would have their own country (although Turkey would come knocking on their door shortly thereafter).

It's great to think that you'll form some unifying army of mixed ethnicities and religions who band together to keep Iraq free and everyone is happy and rainbows and all that. But many of them will still identify with regions, with religions, and they've probably, much like the police, been infiltrated to some extent by militia members. Education right now is mostly done in religious institutions whose motto does not include the words "Tolerance for all!".

The country right now is not in all-out civil war but in the areas where the two meet (Sunnis and Shias) it's about as close as you can get without a declaration. Within a year after the American forces leave, all of this resentment is going to boil over again and there is going to be some serious bloodshed.

Stop thinking that overnight, or even over the course of one generation, you're going to transform these people into the beacon for Westernized thought-processes and actions. It is not going to happen.

Israel and palestine have been fighting for thousands of years too but we got right in the middle of that by supporting israel.

[yakbladder]

Originally Posted by chromekilla

Israel and palestine have been fighting for thousands of years too but we got right in the middle of that by supporting israel.

Yes, and you can see what a model of peace and security the Middle East is because of it.

[sa1177]

Originally Posted by chromekilla

Israel and palestine have been fighting for thousands of years too but we got right in the middle of that by supporting israel.

Yes we do support Israel yet we do so without using U.S. troops....we support Israel with U.S. inteligence, technology and $$..not American lives.

[chromekilla]

Originally Posted by yakbladder

Yes, and you can see what a model of peace and security the Middle East is because of it.

I hope that is sarcasm.No matter if we support israel with man power or technology and money we still are getting in the middle of a conflict that has gone of for thousands of years.If u say we should stay out of the middle of ****es and shias then u would be a hypocrite to say that supporting israel is ok.

[Ed O]

Originally Posted by yakbladder

Stop thinking that overnight, or even over the course of one generation, you're going to transform these people into the beacon for Westernized thought-processes and actions. It is not going to happen.

So do... what?

Give up on them as ignorant savages?

Let one side oppress the other, and allow that oppressive regime to use the natural resources at its disposal to develop weapons that can be used against us?

Our current course of action has been expensive and painful for all involved. But I am glad that the U.S. has done something to shake things up... both because it gives a chance--however slight--for democratic ideas to take hold and because it destabilizes Iraq to the point where whatever regime emerges will be years, perhaps decades, away from creating weapons of mass destruction.

Ed O.

[It's_GO_Time]

Originally Posted by Ed O

So do... what?

Give up on them as ignorant savages?

Let one side oppress the other, and allow that oppressive regime to use the natural resources at its disposal to develop weapons that can be used against us?

Our current course of action has been expensive and painful for all involved. But I am glad that the U.S. has done something to shake things up... both because it gives a chance--however slight--for democratic ideas to take hold and because it destabilizes Iraq to the point where whatever regime emerges will be years, perhaps decades, away from creating weapons of mass destruction.

Ed O.

If our goal is to take out "oppressive regimes," then there are many more countires to go after we are "done" with Iraq.

This idea that the US has the right and only ideas on how a society should govern themselves is what generates so much of the hatred against the US. The middle east is one of the most complex societies in the world. We are dealing with a society where religion is so intergrated into society, to think of a democracy and separation of church and state in that region is impossible.

These are poeple who have no problem dying for thier religious beliefs. How Bush thought he could just go in there and put in place a democratic society was incredibly short sighted. And this is not argument in hindsight. Any expert on the region warned of the difficluties the US would have after Sadam was overthrown.

You might be glad the US shook things up, but there are plenty of Iraqies who did not like Sadam who feel otherwise. These people just want to be able to live life with the least possible threat of death on a daily basis. The US ridding Sadam of the country have not caused that.

It's nice that US citizens think we have decreased the odds of being attacked by WMD (I personally doubt), it is nice that we think we have taken another step to "spreading democracy" on the world, and it is nice to Americans to feel we reponded to 911 appropriately. But I don't think Iraq citizen are overly concerned with how Americans feel about the fact we came into their country and created a bigger mess than they originally had.

[Ed O]

Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Darius

IYou might be glad the US shook things up, but there are plenty of Iraqies who did not like Sadam who feel otherwise. These people just want to be able to live life with the least possible threat of death on a daily basis. The US ridding Sadam of the country have not caused that.

It's nice that US citizens think we have decreased the odds of being attacked by WMD (I personally doubt), it is nice that we think we have taken another step to "spreading democracy" on the world, and it is nice to Americans to feel we reponded to 911 appropriately. But I don't think Iraq citizen are overly concerned with how Americans feel about the fact we came into their country and created a bigger mess than they originally had.

See, I don't really care what Iraqis think. That sounds bad, and at some level it IS bad.

But international relations is all about power and about what's doing best for our country. We only help other countries insofar as it helps us. Whether that means defending our allies or providing humanitarian aid so we feel better about ourselves, it's OUR interests that matter, not the interests of those we act upon.

It's not a zero-sum game, of course. Rebuilding Japan helped that country just like it helped us, and Iraq has an opportunity to become a regional power with international sympathy and support if it's able to take advantage of the opportunity that the US has provided (and of course, to be fair, for which it has paid a steep price).

Or they can focus on the US as bad guys and tear themselves apart as soon as we finally leave. Hopefully their collective choice will be constructive, rather than (self-)destructive.

Ed O.

[sa1177]

Take a number...."Next"....

DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda in Iraq named a successor following the killing of the group's leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, according to an Internet statement on Monday.

"The shura council of al Qaeda in Iraq unanimously agreed on Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Muhajir, to be a successor to Sheikh Abu Musab al-Zarqawi," said a statement signed by al Qaeda and posted on a Web site frequently used by Islamist militants.

"Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Muhajir is a good brother, has a history in jihad and is knowledgeable. We ask God that he ... continue what Sheikh Abu Musab began," it said.

Muhajir, little known in the West, was not among the names that al Qaeda experts had expected as Zarqawi's likely successor.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsa...&src=rss&rpc=22

[yakbladder]

Originally Posted by Ed O

So do... what?

Give up on them as ignorant savages?

Let one side oppress the other, and allow that oppressive regime to use the natural resources at its disposal to develop weapons that can be used against us?

Our current course of action has been expensive and painful for all involved. But I am glad that the U.S. has done something to shake things up... both because it gives a chance--however slight--for democratic ideas to take hold and because it destabilizes Iraq to the point where whatever regime emerges will be years, perhaps decades, away from creating weapons of mass destruction.

Ed O.

No, you approach the issue with actual intelligence and perhaps even over the course of years, if it takes so long, build up expertise to deal with the people in terminology and on a socio-cultural level they understand.

This is difficult because of our earlier and some current actions, many of these people just don't like us. They feel, whether right or wrong, that absorbing parts of our culture will lead to degredation of their culture, that we belittle them already, and that we over value Israel and its claims to land.

The biggest problem I see is that many people are A) unwilling to admit we made past mistakes that greatly affected the stability of the region and our relations in it (see Shah of Iran as Example I), and B) they view the war in Iraq as a singular issue rather than a piece in a complex whole. Furthermore, for all of you gleam-in-your-eye democracy pushers, while that's a great idea and all, we haven't exactly been the strongest proponents of this idea. If you'd like I can dig up a few examples, but I know you're smart enough Ed so I'll skip that, but there have been numerous occassions where the U.S. didn't really want democracy, they wanted the people to elect whom the US wanted in power.

Every time you continue to "buy" a couple of years of stability by these actions or by exerting your power in a manner that the entire world can see is self-centered you are doing so by mortgaging off another ten years of hatred against the U.S.

Of course, you could probably nullify all of the region's impact by simply coming up with an alternative to oil!

[yakbladder]

Originally Posted by chromekilla

I hope that is sarcasm.No matter if we support israel with man power or technology and money we still are getting in the middle of a conflict that has gone of for thousands of years.If u say we should stay out of the middle of ****es and shias then u would be a hypocrite to say that supporting israel is ok.

It is sarcasm. I just didn't know which smiley to best use to illustrate sarcasm.

Believe it or not, the conflict between Israel and others in the region has not been as brutal or clear cut as it is now. After all, Israel wasn't even formed until the 1940's. I believe it's okay to support Israel, but I think the degree to which we support them has caused much erosion in the relations with other neighboring countries.

You also must remember that a large portion of the conflict originally was not over religion (as it is with Sunni and Shia) but instead over land. Religion played into that conflict, but was not the centerpoint.

[Blazer Ringbearer]

It would be interesting to see the polls of the average Iraqi on whether or not they think that it's a waste for the Americans to be in Iraq right now.

I don't think we've done a "heck of a job brownie!", but one thing that has been great to see is the enthusiasm of the Iraqi people in voting for their own leaders - something they couldn't do before.

For all of the mistakes and failures of the US government and military, there is a sovereign Iraqi government with a constitution and representative assemblies along with a growing police force and army.

Yeah, they're probably years away from stability, and there are certainly no guarantees, but just getting out now because "they'll just kill themselves when we leave no matter what" is a pretty weak and defeatist outlook. Obviously, we were completely unprepared for this task, but that doesn't mean you just give up now. We would leave the Iraqi people in a worse situation than they were before. We're responsible for cleaning up our own mess and doing what's right for the Iraqi people.