[furball]

We have the power to destroy entire nations by the push of a button. No Americans would die. I pray every night that people of the Middle East will wake up one day and see how evil their leaders are. If their leaders had the power to destroy the United States with a push of a button they would do it in a heart beat. But we don't. Why, because we are a Christian based nation with compassion, but that compassion is not recipricated. Do I really want to drop a Nuke on Iran or Syria? Of course not. And don't use that stupid argument that it is just a small group of terrorists that are causing the problems. Those groups are allowed to operate inside of their borders. We need to hold those nations accountable, and if someday having to drop a bomb on those nations will save thousands of US soldiers, I say keep the option open.

[Stepping Razor]

Originally Posted by furball

We have the power to destroy entire nations by the push of a button. No Americans would die. I pray every night that people of the Middle East will wake up one day and see how evil their leaders are. If their leaders had the power to destroy the United States with a push of a button they would do it in a heart beat. But we don't. Why, because we are a Christian based nation with compassion, but that compassion is not recipricated. Do I really want to drop a Nuke on Iran or Syria? Of course not. And don't use that stupid argument that it is just a small group of terrorists that are causing the problems. Those groups are allowed to operate inside of their borders. We need to hold those nations accountable, and if someday having to drop a bomb on those nations will save thousands of US soldiers, I say keep the option open.

Wow, I don't really know what to say except that I'm glad people like you aren't in charge of our country's foreign policy.

Oh, dammit, people like you ARE in charge of our foreign policy! Bugger!

[Target]

Originally Posted by furball

We have the power to destroy entire nations by the push of a button. No Americans would die. I pray every night that people of the Middle East will wake up one day and see how evil their leaders are. If their leaders had the power to destroy the United States with a push of a button they would do it in a heart beat. But we don't. Why, because we are a Christian based nation with compassion, but that compassion is not recipricated. Do I really want to drop a Nuke on Iran or Syria? Of course not. And don't use that stupid argument that it is just a small group of terrorists that are causing the problems. Those groups are allowed to operate inside of their borders. We need to hold those nations accountable, and if someday having to drop a bomb on those nations will save thousands of US soldiers, I say keep the option open.

Appeasement of the populations in the so called Rogue nations seems impossible without strengthening the leaders who allow the radical militants to set up shop. But ultimately it is the majority populations that will have to realize it is their responsibility to control what their leaders do. Promoting moderate muslim clerics to create a west friendly counter revolution could work long term. That could also create a Mega-Taliban style group that would have to be dealt with down the road.

It's my opinion that what the Bush Admin is doing in Iraq will be effective. Promoting a representive gov't with both cultural as well as political checks and balances is a good idea. Though, creation of a two party theological economically free market republic is proving difficult. But as the standard of living comes up in Iraq so will the people be empowered with enhanced leisure time freedoms, travel and communications ie; the internet that will allow them to move closer to the western way of life and realize the advantage avaliable. It might have worked for the Chinese with the Tianmen square protests, and may yet with the aid of American software and website developers.

One thing that amazes me is that when an American corporation is found to be taking advantage of the 'sweatshops' in countries controlled by or allied with the Chinese, our Liberal left and the media place the blame on the capatilist company and the demand of the Americans but gives a pass to the leaders that have allowed their workforce to be enslaved through socialist policy. Somewhere is Owners, CEOs, and mid-level managers that set up those sweatshops and invite our companies to use them for production. They and the system that creates them are true villians.

[yakbladder]

Originally Posted by Target

Appeasement of the populations in the so called Rogue nations seems impossible without strengthening the leaders who allow the radical militants to set up shop. But ultimately it is the majority populations that will have to realize it is their responsibility to control what their leaders do. Promoting moderate muslim clerics to create a west friendly counter revolution could work long term. That could also create a Mega-Taliban style group that would have to be dealt with down the road.

I agree with this part of your post..the rest...nyuh

There are really only two ways out of the eternal conflict with Muslim based countries in the Middle East. One is to bomb them completely out of existence and kill pretty much every person there. But you may run the risk of alienating other countries in the world who may be a bit...nervous??...everytime they deal with us. Except for China and Russia who would probably become the new (if they aren't back there already) centers of power in the world and Europe who would distance themselves from us as fast as they could.

The other option is to create schism within the Muslim world there and win through moderating out the worst elements. This will mean making concessions on points such as Israel's influence, our use of the veto power in the UN, and our presence (militarily) in certain Gulf countries. It may also mean allowing quasi-oppresive regimes to continue to operate and turning a public eye away from certain human rights abuses (though keeping up intense pressure privately). We would aim for a gradual, though not glacial, increase in personal and collective liberties and the continued introduction of democracy. The hope would be that eventually you will moderate enough people and bring them enough liberties that they realize the extremist elements will cost them dearly in terms of their lifestyle. It is only at that point that they A) can elect and "control" a government willing to rat out extremist elements within their borders and B) inform local and international authorities concerning the existence of extremists within their own neighborhoods.

It would also be important to support the molding of the "culture" by investing heavily in the secular education systems that exist in each country. Many of the schools in Pakistan, for instance, are supported only by religious institutions and classes taught by clerics adhering to strict Muslim laws. Supporting moderate clerics, as Target pointed out, would be beneficial, but I think you'd have a hard time finding many clerics who would agree to accept funding from the U.S. publicly. Now if there were some back channel created....

[hoojacks]

This all seems like too little too late. What's the point in trying to convert the Middle East to a western culture when the oil is going to run dry in 50 years? We should be spending this money converting our economy from a petroleum based one to a renewable resource based one.

Besides, propping up a "west friendly" government in most places in the Middle East would not work. Look what happened in Palestine. Elections roll around, then people will vote who they ACTUALLY want to lead them. It might be hard to grasp for alot of people, but our view of a "western society" is not what people in the Middle East desire. Sure, they would like commodities and luxuries, but they don't want our secularism and dime-store culture.

All of this, of course, boils back down to Israel. America is seen as Israel's older brother who is a bodygaurd and looks the other way no matter what they do. In a way, we are. We can't just let Israel be taken down now, millions of people would either die or be displaced (unfortunatly, millions of people either died or were displaced BECAUSE of Israel,) so we're kind of in a catch 22. There's no way we're going to get the majority of the Middle East on our good side if we keep siding with Israel. Especially now that they've declared war on Lebanon.

[hasoos]

A truly sad situation in the middle east.

I do agree that what would be nice to see would be moderate Islamic philosophy taking hold and dominating in the region instead of the extremist we see, but unfortunately their voices are being drowned out by the extremist. What I wonder is it because the extremist go to such lengths and creating such violent acts for their voices to be heard, or is it because the moderates are not speaking. The facts are no moderate Muslim leaders are stepping up to the leadership plate and doing anything about this.

A couple of other things I have noticed about this situation:

1. It is obvious that Iran is supplying Hezbollah with weapons. In fact I would go so far as to say that they are having Hezbollah testing out their technology before they use it in a real battle. Does anybody really believe Hezbollah is capable of making their own remote controlled attack drone? Or how about Missiles with a 100 mile range(Definitly more feasible then the attaack drone, but still low.) . They have also used several weapons which are surface to ship missiles, which are very complex weapons, possibly even more so then their land based missiles, as the targeting systems to guide it to a ship require a higher level of technology. It is very obvious to me Iran is preparing for war and they are using Hezbollah to test their weapons now.

2. The government in Lebanon should not be held responsible for what is going on here. They do not want Hezbollah in southern Lebanon doing what they are doing, but they do not have the armed forces to deal with the situation. Israel is trying to force them to attack a group that would absolutely have them outgunned, and would literally be suicide for them to attack. If anything, Israel should be working with the Lebanese government to work out a deal to work together and disarme this group, not killing people and destroying their infrastructure. It would be similar to forcing a bum at gunpoint to attack a police station that has been called ahead of time and told and attack is coming. Suicide.

3. One of the biggest situations I see developing is the 25,000 Americans in Beirut/Lebanon area that are now stranded. If a situation comes forth where the American Military is called in to rescue them, I view that situation as one of the most volatile. Even if the USA has permission from the Lebanese Government and Israel to come in under cease fire, there are enough Militants on the ground who would love to get a shot off at US troops and Americans that it could be the trigger to a bigger situation.

Last but not least, and one of the funniest things (In a very dark humor sort of way), is the Hezbollah attack drone. When we build attack drones, we even build them so they can come back and be re-used, to fight another day if you will. Hezbollah builds theirs like a suicide bomber, which is guided into a target and destroys itself. Even their attack drones are suicide bombers.

[hoojacks]

Originally Posted by hasoos

A truly sad situation in the middle east.

I do agree that what would be nice to see would be moderate Islamic philosophy taking hold and dominating in the region instead of the extremist we see, but unfortunately their voices are being drowned out by the extremist. What I wonder is it because the extremist go to such lengths and creating such violent acts for their voices to be heard, or is it because the moderates are not speaking. The facts are no moderate Muslim leaders are stepping up to the leadership plate and doing anything about this.

I have asked a few of my Arab friends about why the moderate Muslim population doesn't speak up and denounce these atrocities. One of my friends visiting from Saudi Arabia told me that they do, all the time (at least from what he hears, it is nigh upon impossible to generalize about the Middle East.) He said that it is the local governments that denounce Muslim extremism, and not the world Arab leaders (the ones that make American headlines.) Alot of the time, it is the news that we are relying on to generalize about a population, and that is dangerous (not pointing any fingers here.)

Two Arab ladies I know, one from Kuwait and one from Lebanon both said that every Arab lives in paranoia of Israel. To them, anyone fighting Israel can't be that big of a problem (once again, who knows how all the Arabs feel.) Another thing to take into consideration is the Salman Rushdie scenario in some of the more extremist neighborhoods.

2. The government in Lebanon should not be held responsible for what is going on here. They do not want Hezbollah in southern Lebanon doing what they are doing, but they do not have the armed forces to deal with the situation. Israel is trying to force them to attack a group that would absolutely have them outgunned, and would literally be suicide for them to attack. If anything, Israel should be working with the Lebanese government to work out a deal to work together and disarme this group, not killing people and destroying their infrastructure. It would be similar to forcing a bum at gunpoint to attack a police station that has been called ahead of time and told and attack is coming. Suicide.

To an outside observer, it would seem that Hezbollah is in reality occupying southern Lebanon against the people's will. I do agree, the Lebanese army would not be able to root them out, especially with Iran and Syria in the mix.

However: Hezbollah are tolerated by many people in Lebanon because of what they did in the early 80's to oust Israel (not to mention they are a legitimate political organization that have extensive civilian operations in building infrastructure.) I don't want to use the term "national heroes," but other people might. But, I forsee an Osama Bin Laden/Afghanistan situation coming up in that who were once freedom fighters against a foreign occupier and revered as such will become a scourge to the safety of the general populace. The opinion of Israel in Lebanon can't get much lower, but I also imagine many people are realizing that this wouldn't of happened if Hezbollah hadn't provoked it (long term memory aside.)

[Target]

God have mercy on the lebanese. The situation is so much like the Spanish civil war it is almost Deja vu. Two nations with high tech weaponry sparing via proxy on the soil of a third.


Arabs will love this war. Their oil has never been worth more. It will end only when they realize their blood and water is even more valuable. The leaders of Egypt and Saudi Arabia as well as numerous other arab nations will have to support Iran and Syria or face coups and uprisings. War next door will likely unite India and Pakistan. They would be a strong ally to the israelis and Americans to engage Iran on an eastern front. Pakistan because Aziz owes the US for everything and India because of their majority Hindu population that has been plagued by radical Islam longer then anyone.

[Target]

Originally Posted by hasoos

1. It is obvious that Iran is supplying Hezbollah with weapons. In fact I would go so far as to say that they are having Hezbollah testing out their technology before they use it in a real battle. Does anybody really believe Hezbollah is capable of making their own remote controlled attack drone? Or how about Missiles with a 100 mile range(Definitly more feasible then the attaack drone, but still low.) . They have also used several weapons which are surface to ship missiles, which are very complex weapons, possibly even more so then their land based missiles, as the targeting systems to guide it to a ship require a higher level of technology. It is very obvious to me Iran is preparing for war and they are using Hezbollah to test their weapons now.

Last but not least, and one of the funniest things (In a very dark humor sort of way), is the Hezbollah attack drone. When we build attack drones, we even build them so they can come back and be re-used, to fight another day if you will. Hezbollah builds theirs like a suicide bomber, which is guided into a target and destroys itself. Even their attack drones are suicide bombers.

Apparently Iran is not supplying weapons only. This AP article claims that the ship was hit by a radar guided missle fired by Iranian Republican Guard troops.

of course the source is the IDF;

A missile fired by Hezbollah, not an unmanned drone laden with explosives, damaged an Israeli warship off Lebanon, the army said Saturday. Elite Iranian troops helped fire the missile, a senior Israeli intelligence official said.


One sailor was killed and three were missing.

The intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the information, said about 100 Iranian soldiers are in Lebanon and helped fire the Iranian-made, radar-guided C-102 at the ship late Friday.

The official added that the troops involved in firing the missile are from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, an elite corps of more than 200,000 fighters that is independent of the regular armed forces and controlled directly by supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Initial information indicated the guerrillas had used a drone for the first time to attack Israeli forces. But the army's investigation showed that Hezbollah had fired an Iranian-made missile at the vessel from the shores of Lebanon, said Brig. Gen. Ido Nehushtan.

"We can confirm that it was hit by an Iranian-made missile launched by Hezbollah. We see this as very profound fingerprint of Iranian involvement in Hezbollah," Nehushtan said in an interview with The Associated Press.

[hoojacks]

Here's was Fox News' own John Gibson has to say about this situation (I heard this on KXL)



"...when you visit the holy land, the birthplace of Christ, do you want to deal with Shlomo the Jew or Hakeem the Arab? Honestly. This is why there were the Crusades... it's going to come down to them or us."

I nearly crashed my car because I was instantly blinded with rage.






by the way, doesn't he look like an alien invader from the planet Slug? It's like no one believed he was human so his slug-overlords told him to wear giant glasses in an attempt to pass as a person.

[BlayZa]

i have never been more glad to live in new zealand.

[Waukee]

Originally Posted by furball

We have the power to destroy entire nations by the push of a button. No Americans would die. I pray every night that people of the Middle East will wake up one day and see how evil their leaders are. If their leaders had the power to destroy the United States with a push of a button they would do it in a heart beat. But we don't. Why, because we are a Christian based nation with compassion, but that compassion is not recipricated. Do I really want to drop a Nuke on Iran or Syria? Of course not. And don't use that stupid argument that it is just a small group of terrorists that are causing the problems. Those groups are allowed to operate inside of their borders. We need to hold those nations accountable, and if someday having to drop a bomb on those nations will save thousands of US soldiers, I say keep the option open.

There are evil leaders in the MiddleEast, Asia, Africa and in South America....We are catching all these terror cells now because we have learned from our mistakes, I think your making a big deal over nothing.