[ProudBFan]

Originally Posted by Ed O

I'm not opposed to lawyers, generally. I know a lot of them, have been trained to be one, and I know how much good they can do. I was arguing against hiring one JUST to go for the jugular.

If it comes down to PBF wanting custody, though? I can't imagine NOT hiring an attorney. The stakes are too high not to...

Ed O.

I'm pretty sure I have mentioned this several times in this thread, but just to make sure: I have one of the best, most experienced divorce attorneys in the Portland area on retainer. I just try to avoid using him unless I absolutely need to. And we both agree on this approach.

PBF

[yakbladder]

Originally Posted by ProudBFan

I'm pretty sure I have mentioned this several times in this thread, but just to make sure: I have one of the best, most experienced divorce attorneys in the Portland area on retainer. I just try to avoid using him unless I absolutely need to. And we both agree on this approach.

PBF

Perhaps I have miscommunicated. I wasn't trying to get across the point that you do or don't need lawyers. What I'm saying is that regardless of that viewpoint you need to figure out relatively quickly whether you want full custody or not. You seemed to indicate that in your last post but in the post before indicated that judicial history, etc. were not on your side.

Hence why I was saying that, metaphorically, you either need to divest yourself of fecal material or vertically evacuate the commode.

Either way we're all behind ya PBF!

[ProudBFan]

Originally Posted by yakbladder

Perhaps I have miscommunicated. I wasn't trying to get across the point that you do or don't need lawyers. What I'm saying is that regardless of that viewpoint you need to figure out relatively quickly whether you want full custody or not. You seemed to indicate that in your last post but in the post before indicated that judicial history, etc. were not on your side.

You are correct. What I want, and what may be possible may be two different things here. I will be meeting with my attorney to discuss that very soon.

Hence why I was saying that, metaphorically, you either need to divest yourself of fecal material or vertically evacuate the commode.

Either way we're all behind ya PBF!

Um... you may want to re-evaluate that position given the decision you pointed out I need to make in the near future. Metaphorically speaking, of course.

PBF

[B_&_B]

GO FOR #7 PBF! It's the best option for you and your kids.

[ProudBFan]

Originally Posted by B_&_B

GO FOR #7 PBF! It's the best option for you and your kids.

IF I can get her to agree to it -OR- could realistically expect our judge to agree to / mandate such a drastic change of status quo. Until I (re-)discuss it with my attorney, I am really pessimistic about the chances of either of those things happening. But deep down, it's what I want. Am I willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars pursuing a slim chance of making it happen (in court)? I dunno. Definitely YES if I knew with 100% certainty that I would get the outcome I want for the money. But at this point in time, I just dont know - because if it doesn't work out that way, that's tens of thousands of dollars we no longer have to provide for the children.

PBF

[ProudBFan]

Busy day yesterday. Quick update:

1. We went to custodial mediation and actually came out with a parenting time agreement (i.e., parenting plan). But during the meeting we got to discussing the one day each week that the children are with me, and she was getting really upset. In her stated opinion, she was tired of being yanked around by my work schedule. In reality, we have only had to adjust the day of the week that the children are with me (my telecommute day) twice - once when my manager left for sabbatical so I could attend a regular meeting in her place, and once when she came back (changing it back to the original day). She was so worked up, in fact, that she came right out and said she hoped I got fired from my job so we wouldnt have to worry about the work schedule anymore. Yep, right in front of the mediator. Why am I telling you this? Read on.

2. I visited with my attorney later in the day and signed a Status Quo Order to empty her threats to pick up and move the children / stop letting the children visit me that one weekday every week. Will be filed on Monday. My attorney faxed a copy to hers yesterday. She and I talked last night (more on that below), and she asked why I was filing motions against her. My calm response was that I cant have her threatening to move the kids or stop allowing them to visit 1x / week - the threats are just too upsetting and distracting.

3. Also from my meeting with my attorney: In cases like ours, when we already have a low mortgage (fixed, no other way to do it) and the kids have roots, the court almost always awards full possession of the house to the custodial parent. Not likely she is going to find an equal or lower mortgage somewhere else, and certainly less disruptive to the children to keep them there. So we can expect that to happen in this case, so my equity in the financial settlement will come from being able to keep most of my retirement savings. I am totally OK with that, because 1) it keeps the kids in their home (as you know, my biggest source of personal conflict about this whole thing), 2) it gets my name off the mortgage, and 3) I get equal value in the financial settlement. We are drafting a *real* financial settlement proposal now, based on what we can expect the court to do in this case, in the hopes we can agree on a settlement similar to what the court would provide without the court-related expenses.

4. As I was picking up the boys from school yesterday, she called and asked if I had cashed out my entire IRA. I asked why, and she said she needed money to fix her car, get new tires, and pay her attorney fees. I told her the kids were in the car with me, and right then wasnt a good time to talk about it. Called her back later (after the kids were in bed) and told her no, I wasnt going to be pulling any money out of my IRA to give to her - that my days of jumping to her financial rescue are over. Course that made her angry, so of course she then tried to argue it out of me:

A) Well, we ARE still legally married, so half of everything you have is legally mine and you have no right to withold it from me! My response #1: Oh really? OK, so if half of what I have is legally yours, then the other half is legally mine and you have no right to withold it from me. So... wheres my half of the money you took from our checking account, savings account, IRA, and paychecks starting last November when we seperated? My response #2: Its interesting how you bring up the fact that we are legally married when it suits your purposes (i.e., trying to get money from me), but all other times - according to you - we arent married anymore.

B) The tires are completely bald! Its not safe for me to drive the children around in it! My response #1: You should have been rotating the tires every few thousand miles, Les Schwab will do that for free, you know. My response #2: You blew through a ton of money since we seperated. Your choices are not my problem. My response #3: Go to Les Schwab, buy some new tires, and set up a payment plan. They do that too. If you dont do that, its your choice - see response #2, above.

C) But... I dont have any other way to fix the car, get new tires, or may my attorney fees! My response #1: I have been giving you 2/3 of whats left after paying ALL our bills (including yours) each paycheck. Why havent you been putting some of that away for emergencies? My response #2: You could always borrow some money like you made me do. My response #3: Remember that job you said you hope I get fired from? Well, thats where all that money you are asking for comes from. And since you dont care about whether or not we have any money, why the hell would I want to give you any more of it?

Point of this update is that things are progressing on all fronts... including me not leaving the door open for her to manipulate me anymore. I hope she is starting to realize that, and in response will start to take more responsibility for her decisions. But Im not holding my breath.

Sorry if it sounds like Im crowing here. This really is a sad situation, and that is not my intent.

PBF

[crandc]

Thanks for the update, PBF.

Aside from all it's doing to you, it po's the HELL out of me when an adult woman cannot be responsible for herself. I am not talking about real emergencies or even hard times, just things like driving a car means you have to maintain it. I always want to say, what are you, 10 years old?

I will be so happy for you when you are clear of this situation, I may have to send you something chocolate to celebrate with.

[yakbladder]

Originally Posted by ProudBFan

Busy day yesterday. Quick update:

PBF

Good for you PBF! It sounds like a real knock-down, drag-out developing though but at least you are holding your own with rational, reasonable arguments and viewpoints. Very logical, I like it.

But I just can't help wonder - is it possible she's just incredibly naive vs manipulative? I mean, I don't want to offend you as she's the mother of your children and you married her, but is she a little slow?

Based upon your experiences I think if I ever get a divorce I'm immediately moving to Cuba and will be hereafter known as El Blanco Diablo.

[ProudBFan]

Originally Posted by yakbladder

But I just can't help wonder - is it possible she's just incredibly naive vs manipulative? I mean, I don't want to offend you as she's the mother of your children and you married her, but is she a little slow?

Well, she married me, so I guess one could make that argument. :-)

Based upon your experiences I think if I ever get a divorce I'm immediately moving to Cuba and will be hereafter known as El Blanco Diablo.

That would be El Diablo Blanco, my friend.

My perspective on divorce, after going through what I have gone through so far, is that it is what you and your soon-to-be-ex make of it. If you respect each other but mutually just want to go different directions, it can be pretty darn easy I would imagine.

That just happened not to be the case in my situation. Looking back, I cant say that she really ever respected me (and probably still doesnt). Consequently, she did some things that really made this thing get much uglier than it had to be. And, to tell you the truth, my respect for her disintegrated as my willingness to stand up for myself materialized, which also contributed to this ugliness. And so did the fact that THAT was the last thing she expected to happen. Really threw her for a loop.

Anyway, after making the mistakes Ive made (so far), my advice to anyone facing divorce is that the sooner you both accept that its going to happen (one of you will always have accepted it long before the other) and dedicate yourselves to working together to make it as painless as possible, the better/smoother/cheaper/faster it will go for you. The person who didnt initiate it will almost always be the emotional one after things come to a head, because the other will have generally reached acceptance before announcing his/her intent to leave the marriage.

But I dont think youre ever gonna have to worry about that, yak. You got a good one there. After all, she stuck with you even after meeting all your drunk, nerdy, Blazers message board geek friends... and seeing Gramps and e_blazer dance on a bar-room table wearing nothing more than lamp-shades while you, Spud, scout, Pop, PapaG, and I kept the $1 bills flying.

Um... perhaps Ive said too much...

:-)

PBF

[Draco]

Go for full custody. If it works you will be so happy. If it doesn't, at least you gave it your best shot. If you don't try, you'll regret it for the rest of your life.

[ProudBFan]

Originally Posted by Draco

Go for full custody. If it works you will be so happy. If it doesn't, at least you gave it your best shot. If you don't try, you'll regret it for the rest of your life.

While I appreciate the sentiment, Draco, there is just no way I will be awarded full custody of the children no matter how much time, effort, and money I invest into that goal. The family laws of the State of Oregon are set up to maintain the status quo from the childs perspective when their parents divorce. That means, if Mommy has been the primary caregiver for the children (as is the case here - with me being the sole breadwinner for the family since before the arrival of our first, and with me moving out of the family home when we seperated back in November of last yeat), Mommy will continue to be the primary caregiver for the children. The ONLY cases in which that wouldnt happen would be cases of child neglect, child abuse, domestic violence (between her and her new partner, if/when she finds one), alcoholism, drug abuse, or severe mental illness in the childs environment. And none of that is happening in our case. So, I can either invest tens of thousands of dollars into fighting it and eventually wind up exactly where this is headed anyway (with her being being awarded primary custody of our children), or I can accept it and save us all a whole bunch of time, conflict (probably the most important consideration - ongoing conflict between the parents is the most harmful aspect of divorce for the children), and money.

What I will regret for the rest of my life is allowing her to trick me into moving out of the family home in the first place. In essence, that is when I gave up most of my parenting time with my children, and I didnt even know it at the time.

Men, two strong pieces of advice here:

1. When you start talking about starting a family with your wife/girlfriend, make sure the plan is for her to eventually return to the workforce so that you are BOTH providing for your family, and you are BOTH contributing equally to your childs caregiving. And then stick to that plan.

2. If you do eventually head down the path of divorce (I pray it doesnt happen to you), do NOT - under any circumstances - move out of your family home until the divorce is finalized if you want to maintain anything close to half of all parenting time your children will receive from the two of you.

PBF

[crandc]

Originally Posted by ProudBFan

Men, two strong pieces of advice here:

1. When you start talking about starting a family with your wife/girlfriend, make sure the plan is for her to eventually return to the workforce so that you are BOTH providing for your family, and you are BOTH contributing equally to your childs caregiving. And then stick to that plan.

PBF

I would say that the advice applies to women as well. If you are talking about starting a family, make sure you plan to return to the workforce (or don't leave at all aside from maternity leave).
My sister quit work at her husband's insistence to become full time homemaker/mother, then when they divorced he insisted she leave the house since he had paid for it and argued he should not have to provide child support because he had been the sole provider and had worked long hours (true). It took her years to really get back on her feet, having been out of the workforce and finding that in today's world 5 years is a lifetime behind.