[Talkhard]

Just one more sign that we are winning the war in Iraq . . .

Al-Maliki, a Shiite Muslim, told reporters that "terrorist acts" including car bombings and suicide attacks have dropped by 77 percent from last year's high, a sign that Sunni-Shiite violence "is closed now."

"When the sectarian strife is over, then I will not fear the gangs who are running between the provinces," al-Maliki said, an apparent reference to al-Qaida and other Sunni religious extremists that have been driven from the capital.

"The majority of these terrorists are fleeing to nearby countries, and I warned our brothers in the Islamic and Arab countries to be aware in order that they not harm these countries," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071111/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

[Yega1979]

Awesome! Once they all get out, it will be just like it was before we invaded!

In other news, I lost 10,000 gambling, but through hard work have saved my money and earned it back! Ya!!! That's $10,000 dollars baby!

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by Yega1979

Awesome! Once they all get out, it will be just like it was before we invaded!

Wrong, but thanks for playing.

In the new Iraq there is:
No Saddam Hussein
No rape rooms
No mass executions
No dictatorship
No suppression of the press
No intimidation of the people

On the positive side, there is:
A new federal constitution
Regular and open elections
A parliament
A representative form of government
A free press of over 100 independant newspapers
A higher standard of living
An independant army and police force
More rights for women and homosexuals
Hope for the future

[Stepping Razor]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Wrong, but thanks for playing.

In the new Iraq there is:
No Saddam Hussein
No rape rooms
No mass executions
No dictatorship
No suppression of the press
No intimidation of the people

On the positive side, there is:
A new federal constitution
Regular and open elections
A parliament
A representative form of government
A free press of over 100 independant newspapers
A higher standard of living
An independant army and police force
More rights for women and homosexuals
Hope for the future

While the situation you describe may be possible in the future, if all turns out well, it's not an accurate depiction of Iraq today. There are still rape rooms -- Abu Ghraib, anyone? There are more mass executions than ever before -- why do you think the various ethnic "death squads" are called "death squads"? There is suppression of the press, not so much from the central government as from the various militias and whatnot. (The Mahdi Army has been very "successful" in this regard.) "Intimidation of the people" is a constant condition of life in civil war. The standard of living absolutely is not higher today than it was five years ago, by any measure. The "independent" army and police force has been functioning as an adjunct of various ethnic militias in different regions. And there are fewer rights for women than under Saddam's secular constitution, and (while I don't know for sure) I find it frankly impossible to believe that the new Iraqi government has taken measures to defend gays. Do you have any evidence for this?

So, out of your list: Saddam is gone. (That's good.) A new democratic government has been established. (That is great, if it doesn't collapse. Which is anyone's guess right now... fingers crossed.)

Anyway, long story short... hopefully the state of life in Iraq will eventually be better than it was under Saddam. Right now, by most measures, it just isn't.

Stepping Razor

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by Stepping Razor

There are still rape rooms -- Abu Ghraib, anyone?

No one was raped at Abu Ghraib. No one's head was cut off, or tongue cut out, either. There were a few humiliating moments for prisoners who had to wear ladie's underwear on their heads, but that was mild compared to what the terrorists do. Liberals have been trying to make Abu Ghraib the worst thing in the history of war, but it's laughable.

There are more mass executions than ever before -- why do you think the various ethnic "death squads" are called "death squads"?

The government is not performing mass executions--the terrorists are. It's the same thing that happens in inner cities in this country: renegades on the loose who are killing and maiming people. That's a crime problem, not a problem of government run amuck. And the suicide bombings and mass killings are way down, as this story and others point out.

There is suppression of the press, not so much from the central government as from the various militias and whatnot. (The Mahdi Army has been very "successful" in this regard.)

The fact is, there are more free and independant newspapers in Iraq now than there were under Saddam. Period.

"Intimidation of the people" is a constant condition of life in civil war.

There is no civil war in Iraq, and there never was. This was a fiction of the Left.

The standard of living absolutely is not higher today than it was five years ago, by any measure.

The standard of living for doctors and teachers and other professionals is way up since Saddam was overthrown. This has been very clearly documented. As the country regains stability, and the economy starts functioning better, prosperity will spread through many other parts of the population, as well.

The "independent" army and police force has been functioning as an adjunct of various ethnic militias in different regions.

Perhaps to some degree, but local ethnic groups have also been joining the police and army and even supporting the American forces to help defeat the terrorists. They're tired of the violance and they know that supporting the coalition troops and their own military is the best way to stop it.

And there are fewer rights for women than under Saddam's secular constitution

Women have been empowered to speak up more since Saddam was kicked out. In 2003, The Organization of Women's Freedom in Iraq was formed to give more voice to women's issues. This kind of organization probably wouldn't have been allowed to exist under Saddam.

I find it frankly impossible to believe that the new Iraqi government has taken measures to defend gays.

Homosexuals always have more rights under democracies than they do under totalitarian regimes.

[ryanjend22]

so what, violence is down? until we leave of course, which seems to be never at the moment. the government is a mess there still.

meanwhile our debt is insane, and 7 major countries are now looking at abandoning the U.S. dollar to protect their assets. bad recession anyone? we are losing the war both at home and abroad. stop fooling yourself.

[Diable]

It's funny how ideologues like to simplify everything so that they can always make it seem as though they are never wrong.Reality does not conform to any ideology.Terrorists might be leaving Iraq...And going back to where they came from.The Insurgents...Iraqi insurgents started going after them after everyone knew we had been defeated in whatever the hell our purpose was in going into Iraq.The so called Al Qaeda in Iraq is by and large composed of foreign ideologues who came into Iraq trying to force the Iraqis to accept their vision for the future of the middle east right after we went into Iraq trying to force the Iraqis and other middle eastern nations to accept some idiotic pie in the sky vision for a Middle East that would accept Israel's right to exist and our right to impose our will on them.

Actually it's a goddamned mess and we've been defeated...So have the other idiotic invaders.The Iraqis would like us and them to go somewhere else and blow up other people.

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by Diable

It's funny how ideologues like to simplify everything so that they can always make it seem as though they are never wrong.

It's funny how some people refuse to accept certain facts when they show that we're winning in Iraq. I guess some "ideologies" just can't accept that.

The Iraqis would like us and them to go somewhere else and blow up other people.

But that's not your "ideology" speaking, of course.

[barfo]

So the terrorists are fleeing Iraq? Why is that a good thing?

I thought the rationale for this war was "we are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here". If they flee Iraq, won't we have to go fight them someplace else? Won't that be even more expensive?

You argued for quite some time that terrorists coming to Iraq from outside was a good thing (because then we can fight them there). Now you are arguing that terrorists fleeing Iraq is a good thing (because now we won't have to fight them there any more).

Maybe anything that happens in Iraq is a good thing?

barfo

[Dan]

Originally Posted by barfo

So the terrorists are fleeing Iraq? Why is that a good thing?

I thought the rationale for this war was "we are fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here". If they flee Iraq, won't we have to go fight them someplace else? Won't that be even more expensive?

You argued for quite some time that terrorists coming to Iraq from outside was a good thing (because then we can fight them there). Now you are arguing that terrorists fleeing Iraq is a good thing (because now we won't have to fight them there any more).

Maybe anything that happens in Iraq is a good thing?

barfo

Us leaving Iraq would be a good thing. And that would happen IN Iraq, so yes...you got to make your free throws and I just saved a lot of money by staying at a days inn last night.

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by barfo

You argued for quite some time that terrorists coming to Iraq from outside was a good thing (because then we can fight them there). Now you are arguing that terrorists fleeing Iraq is a good thing (because now we won't have to fight them there any more).

They're fleeing because they're beaten. The goal of any war is to win the war--not to fight it indefinitely. I hope that's not too difficult a concept for you.

[Yega1979]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Wrong, but thanks for playing.

In the new Iraq there is:
No Saddam Hussein
No rape rooms
No mass executions
No dictatorship
No suppression of the press
No intimidation of the people

On the positive side, there is:
A new federal constitution
Regular and open elections
A parliament
A representative form of government
A free press of over 100 independant newspapers
A higher standard of living
An independant army and police force
More rights for women and homosexuals
Hope for the future

You're seriously misinformed, and you do not know the reality of what is going on in Iraq. Ever hear of Blackwater? They are murdering innocent Iraqi civilians and face absolutely no consequences. And saying there are "no mass executions" is a little stupid when hundreds of thousands of civilians have are dying in the war. And yes, they did sodomize people at Abu Ghraib.

The press down there is owned by the US military, and any journalist who tries to print something negative about the occupation is murdered. They are not living in a "free society".