[It's_GO_Time]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

No one's making accusations; they're simply thinking about the fact that Obama sat in that nuthouse of a church for 20 years and listened to that crackpot preacher spew his hateful venom every Sunday--and they're asking themselves, "Is this the kind of man I want running this country?"

Speeches are fine, as far as they go, and Obama is a very eloquent speaker. But it's what you DO, not what you SAY, that matters in this world. And everybody can see what Obama has been doing for 20 years now--listening to hateful preaching without asking the preacher to stop, and without leaving himself. He'd still be listening to those hateful sermons today if those videos hadn't started circulating.

I guess that is why I would hope people with open minds would listen to what Obama has to say about the topic, so they would hear the way you characterized is only one interpretation of the sitaution and not really not the reality of the situation.

But I understand those who are already decided will stick to their reality of the situation no matter what he says. Again, to me that is sad sitaution and feel sorry for people who are so entrenched with their party that they won't take the time to listen to the poeple they attack (I think that happens to Bush as well).

I don't like Bush (god is he really the president of the US) . . . but I will take the time to listen to what he has to say about a topic before I critize him . . . as painful as listening to him is. : )

[Minstrel]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Not on the south side of Chicago! Joining that church was a great move when he ran for the Senate because it made him look like one of the home boys.

There are tons of white working class voters in Chicago and Illinois in general. You don't win a Senate seat in one part of Chicago. He was widely popular across Illinois.

What he didn't realize was how much it could hurt him if he ran for president someday. He also never counted on the videos of his pastor spreading like wildfire all over the internet.

That's not very believable, that when ideas of running for President occurred to him, he had no idea that being part of a church with such controversial views would be damaging. When he had an inkling that he might one day run for President (which had to be 2004 at the latest, when he became the de-facto golden boy in the Democratic party), the Internet was in full swing and every major politician knows that every part of his/her life will be found and scrutinized. And it's not like one's church is a small thing that was unlikely ever to come up.

[blazerboy30]

Originally Posted by Minstrel

That's not very believable, that when ideas of running for President occurred to him, he had no idea that being part of a church with such controversial views would be damaging. When he had an inkling that he might one day run for President (which had to be 2004 at the latest, when he became the de-facto golden boy in the Democratic party), the Internet was in full swing and every major politician knows that every part of his/her life will be found and scrutinized. And it's not like one's church is a small thing that was unlikely ever to come up.

According to what I have read, he tried to start disassociating himself from that church about a year before he officially began running for president. TO ME that signals that he knew there were preachings within the church that many people would find hateful, devisive and inflammatory, hurting his chances of being elected.

[Minstrel]

Originally Posted by blazerboy30

According to what I have read, he tried to start disassociating himself from that church about a year before he officially began running for president. TO ME that signals that he knew there were preachings within the church that many people would find hateful, devisive and inflammatory, hurting his chances of being elected.

That's not my perception, that he began disassociating himself from the church. I recall him mentioning in speeches, this past year, that he was a member of Trinity Church and referring to it when being interviewed.

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by Minstrel

I find this concern of yours, the one that you've been talking about for most of the thread, to be at direct odds with your concern that he's a calculating, non-genuine politician. A "calculating politician" would never have gotten involved with a Christian church that had any message or goal beyond loving Jesus. It's too risky for his/her political career. You suspect he's known and heard Wright's controversial views for many years...and this squares, to you, with a politician primarily concerned with being electable? What's the political upside, in national politics, to being involved with a church who's pastor has negative views of white people and America? "White people and America," incidentally, are pretty important demographics to have on your side in a national, or even congressional, election.

I don't think your two concerns are compatible. Either you have to admit that Obama didn't know about all of this and was blindsided at a bad time, or that he did know about it, which means he doesn't live his life and choose his beliefs and company by what is politically expedient.

I have to admit that I'm grasping at straws a bit on this, Minstrel, and trying to frame Obama's actions in some way that make some sense considering the mess he's in. Upon further reflection, I think the truth may lie somewhere in the middle between political calculation and the bonds of friendship. You have to remember that he began his association with that church 20 years ago when his primary ambition was to get elected to local politics. It may have seemed a smart move politically at that time because he needed the support of the black community and he may not have even been thinking about the national stage. In the midst of that, in working with Reverend Wright, by his own words he formed a close friendship with Wright and credits Wright with leading him to a relationship with Christ.

I find it impossible to believe that in 20 years Obama wasn't aware of Wright's doctrine of black liberation theology because the church makes such a big and open display of it, but perhaps that didn't seem like a big deal at the time in light of his local political aspirations. Once he began to make a name for himself on the national stage, he had to be aware of how his association with the church would be portrayed by conservative pundits. Whether he knew of all of Wright's taped inflammatory messages or not, I guess we'll never know. We do know that a year ago Wright was dis-invited from giving the invocation at one of Obama's functions because he could get a bit "rough" in his sermons. You're right that the politically expedient thing once the the story broke and clips came to light would have been to have dumped Wright and the church under the train. Obama didn't do that, perhaps because his friendship and respect towards Wright for his good works wouldn't allow it, perhaps because he was afraid of alienating the black community, perhaps because there was simply no credible way to distance himself enough after such a longterm relationship, or maybe some combination of all of these.

It will be interesting to see how this issue plays out in the remainder of the campaign. It's not going to die away because it's just to hot of an issue. For people who support him, they'll simply accept Obama's statements and try to move on. For those on the right, Obama and Wright will be linked forever and villified. For those in the middle, like myself, there will always be a certain dissatisfaction with where he left this thing. I still think this issue will be the defining element of this election.

[blazerboy30]

Originally Posted by Minstrel

That's not my perception, that he began disassociating himself from the church. I recall him mentioning in speeches, this past year, that he was a member of Trinity Church and referring to it when being interviewed.

You're right. I meant disassociating himself from that particular preacher, Wright. Which,

Originally Posted by blazerboy30

TO ME signals that he knew there were preachings within the church that many people would find hateful, devisive and inflammatory, hurting his chances of being elected.

[Minstrel]

Originally Posted by blazerboy30

You're right. I meant disassociating himself from that particular preacher, Wright. Which,

*nod* That's quite possible, that he knew that there were at least controversial elements to Wright. That Obama was sitting through rants about how the US deserved 9/11 and such, I am less likely to believe.

[mook]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

I still think this issue will be the defining element of this election.

I don't. certainly not in the general election. there are equally loathsome quotes from religious right leaders that McCain has had to embrace. just watching McCain's body language, it's painful to him how much he's been stuck having to placate the religious wingnuts on his side, and I don't see him as being terribly interested in picking a battle on those grounds.

I still have a great deal of respect for McCain, and I think he thinks he can win by having an honorable battle on the key issues facing America, particularly Iraq and the economy.

besides, stories that really stick tend to be the ones that demonstrate a character flaw in other aspect of a politician's life. examples:

Monica Lewinski was so memorable because Bill Clinton's dissembling was sooo "slick Willy."

Ronald Reagan and Iran/Contra is even now so memorable to me because I vividly remember Reagan mumbling "I don't remember," and within three years he was diagnosed with Alzheimers.

Dukakis in the tank illustrated what a poser he was in other areas.

Al Gore sighing during the debates illustrated what an annoying know-it-all he can be.

the Reverand Wright scandal doesn't really illustrate some greater character flaw. Obama's never once given a "Black Panther-esque" speech. every speech he's given since college has had a theme of accepting our differences and unifying for a common purpose.

it's been on the air so much because it's such a shocking contrast to who Obama is. but next week there won't be more revelations of some new racist or anti-American tirade from Obama. it's just not who he is. the media will flog this story for a month or two, and it will then pass for lack of any updates, and because McCain won't press the issue.

[Talkhard]

I've heard that Oprah Winfrey was a member of Obama's church for several years, but finally left because it was too radical. Anyone know if that is true? If so, it shows that she has better judgement than he does.

[Dan]

Originally Posted by mook

I don't. certainly not in the general election. there are equally loathsome quotes from religious right leaders that McCain has had to embrace. just watching McCain's body language, it's painful to him how much he's been stuck having to placate the religious wingnuts on his side, and I don't see him as being terribly interested in picking a battle on those grounds.

I still have a great deal of respect for McCain, and I think he thinks he can win by having an honorable battle on the key issues facing America, particularly Iraq and the economy.

besides, stories that really stick tend to be the ones that demonstrate a character flaw in other aspect of a politician's life. examples:

Monica Lewinski was so memorable because Bill Clinton's dissembling was sooo "slick Willy."

Ronald Reagan and Iran/Contra is even now so memorable to me because I vividly remember Reagan mumbling "I don't remember," and within three years he was diagnosed with Alzheimers.

Dukakis in the tank illustrated what a poser he was in other areas.

Al Gore sighing during the debates illustrated what an annoying know-it-all he can be.

the Reverand Wright scandal doesn't really illustrate some greater character flaw. Obama's never once given a "Black Panther-esque" speech. every speech he's given since college has had a theme of accepting our differences and unifying for a common purpose.

it's been on the air so much because it's such a shocking contrast to who Obama is. but next week there won't be more revelations of some new racist or anti-American tirade from Obama. it's just not who he is. the media will flog this story for a month or two, and it will then pass for lack of any updates, and because McCain won't press the issue.

There's actually a pastor, whose name escapes me, who hated Obama because his father had lusted, and went "whoring", and implied that his mother was just in it for the taboo nature of a white/black sexual relationship...and that Obama was "trash" for being black and white.

The pastor was black too.

[knickstorm]

Obama caught a huge break cause someone in the state department was snooping around his passport.....so this'll take some of the attention off rev wright.......republicans better hope they werent connected to this.......watergate 2 baby.

[crandc]

I have to agree with mook on defining moments. e_blazer, I do consider you a thoughtful person. Do you really think this trumps EVERYTHING?

2/3 of the population want the US out of Iraq. Would they vote for a candidate who calls for staying another hundred years, who sings and dances over the prospect of launching war on Iran, over a candidate calling for withdrawal because of Pastor Wright?

People are increasingly worried about their jobs, home, retirement. Some have lost all three. Economic issues tend to favor Democrats. McCain has said in so many words he does not know much about the economy and calls for more tax cuts for the rich. Will people who are seeing their well being hit the tank vote for more of the same because of Pastor Wright?

McCain has made it clear he will be in most respects a third Bush term. Bush has the lowest approval ratings over the longest period ever; some presidents have had lower ratings for a brief period but never has one been so conistently low for so long. Will people vote for a continuation of an administration with a 30% approval rate because of Pastor Wright?

I could go on but you get the idea.

To be honest I don't know. A LOT of hate, fear, and racism is coming out of this. Whether you agree or disagree with what he said, Obama tried to appeal to intellect; will that come out on top? Or will the BIG BLACK MAN BAD define the election?