[STOMP]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

On a side note, this is a strong reason why the early primaries are a stupid idea. If information comes out that casts a negative light on a candidate, it's too late for the party to change to a more viable candidate.

a long draw out campaign gives politically driven "news" networks ample time to target the enemy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjvNSpsPu1k

STOMP

[e_blazer1]

So you'd prefer that nobody report this issue? That the voters move along in blissful ignorance of any skeletons that may be out there? I haven't watched Fox news in probably four years before I tuned in last week because I was curious what they were saying about it. I think that it's certainly legitimate to say they sensationalize things like this, but at least they're reporting it. To me, and I think a lot of voters, this is an important news story. You'd never have known that from CNN or any of the major news networks except ABC. They didn't report on it until Barack issued his comments rejecting Wright's remarks. The Oregonian didn't report on it until then either, and they buried it on page 3.

[It's_GO_Time]

Originally Posted by barfo

And what would it take to convince you of that?

barfo

This might do it:

MONACA, Pa. — Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama avoided all the questions on the teachings of his long-time pastor at a news conference here today, promising to address racially tinged comments made by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright in a speech on race in America the Illinois senator intends to deliver Tuesday in Philadelphia.

. . .

Durbin said that Wright and Geraldine Ferraro had both "reflected in their language a mindset in America that was dominant a few decades ago." But Obama plans to talk about how America is changing, he said, and talk about "a more positive view of where our nation can go."



I hope anyone who feels this is an issue will take the time to listen to Obama speak on the topic.

[STOMP]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

So you'd prefer that nobody report this issue?

a witchhunt is news?

Do you know George Bush doesn't go to church? Or that the United Methodists leaders (his supposed faith) have basically disavowed him years back? Why doesn't Fox report this "news" the way they harp on the religion of of those they are trying to tear down daily?

If you can't see through this farce I don't know what to say. Personally I couldn't care less about the religion of Romney, Kennedy, Bush, or Obama, thats their personal business... I care about their actions related to the country.

STOMP

[It's_GO_Time]

Originally Posted by STOMP

a witchhunt is news?

Do you know George Bush doesn't go to church? Or that the United Methodists leaders (his supposed faith) have basically disavowed him years back? Why doesn't Fox report this "news" the way they harp on the religion of of those they are trying to tear down daily?

If you can't see through this farce I don't know what to say.

STOMP

Stomp, humor me and explain the farce to me (in 50 words or less ). I want to put my support behind Obama, but I am disturbed by the pastor's strong beliefs and that he appears to be an influential person in Obama's life.

The whole flag on the lapel thing never bothered me for a second . . . but this pastor is so full of hate I don't see how you can atttend weekly sermons for decades and devote a large part of your life to the church/pastor and not understand what the pastor is all about . . . especially someone as intelligent as Obama. I am convinced that Obama knew all along what the pastor is all about, right now I'm not convinced that Obama feels that way.

But I can't help but think that deep down inside, Obama agrees with the pastor on some level.

[STOMP]

Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Darius

But I can't help but think that deep down inside, Obama agrees with the pastor on some level.

heck, I agree with his pastor on some levels. There is some truth in the things that have made it out to TV-land concerning race and the US's actions.... right? I don't agree with all of what I've heard by a long shot, but I also don't think that a person's personal religious affiliations/beliefs should be open to public scrutiny. It's too personal and the experience too nuanced for that. People take different impressions from common experiences and they attend for different reasons. Some go for the sense of community, some to find/know god, some because they find the minister inspirational, some to set an example for their kids, and some even go to meet like minded singles.

I personally always enjoyed it when the leader would push my buttons/challenge my beliefs from new angles as it would get me to turn over my preconceptions. Growing up I attended a church that had a very dynamic leader. While he occasionally rubbed some in his Beaverton congregation the wrong way and definitely said some things that some people would find outrageous (especially if his stuff was reduced to sound bites), in context I thought it worked. Though I often disagreed with the details of his sermons, I know overall he was very influential in my life on many levels including the way I fashion an argument. He eventually left the church and was replaced by a milk toast guy who my whole family found boring... we still went for the next decade probably mostly for the community/friends that we'd established there.

There are lots of reasons that a person might attend a church. I doubt someone as bright as Obama attended his to become a carbon copy or to emulate his minister on a bigger stage. And how old is the guy we're talking about here? 73? I'm old enough to have had a few people I grew up with slip into dementia and I don't know thats not the case here either. Geez I'm thinking of Shonz now...

Anyway, my basic stance is if you're looking to go after someone, attacking their religion is pretty low. Obama has already denounced the things we're privy to in emphatic terms. Tomorrow he'll address it again. "They" say that the true measure of an individual isn't how they're doing when they're on top but how they respond when they get knocked down. We shall see how he does tomorrow...

that was more then 50 words... sorry

STOMP

[e_blazer1]

I don't care whether George Bush goes to church or not. I don't even care about Obama's religious beliefs. I DO care about whether the prospective President of the United States has some reason for associating with a person of influence who is saying openly anti-US and anti-white statements. I'm concerned as to why Obama would continue to attend such a church and closely associate with a person who holds these kinds of beliefs, even to the point of having him on the spiritual guidance committee for his campaign, when he admits knowing about some of these beliefs for at least a year. If you have no interest in the judgment of a candidate for such high office, then I really don't know what to say.

It wasn't Fox news that broke this story, it was ABC. You can say what you want about Fox being on a witch hunt, but they didn't make up what the pastor said, they didn't make Obama continue to attend a church and include Pastor Wright on his campaign staff. They didn't prevent Obama, who bills himself as a man who can help the country overcome racial divisiveness, from doing something...anything...to bring about change in the hate-filled message being preached in the church that he chooses to attend.

I read on here regularly how Fox is such a horrible stooge for the conservatives. Like I said before, I haven't watched Fox in a long time before this incident, but I have watched some since this thing broke. In that interval, I saw Obama being interviewed on this subject, I saw Democratic Party officials given the opportunity to comment on the story, I saw Bill Clinton asked about it (he dodged the subject), I saw a Newsweek reporter who's doing a story on the church give her impressions about whether the clips are representative of what goes on in the church on a regular basis. All-in-all, I thought the coverage was well rounded and detailed.

Bottom line, I'm not interested at all in where Obama goes to church. I am very interested in whether he has the judgment to be an effective President. Based upon this incident, I have to say that I'm pretty concerned that he does not.

[STOMP]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

It wasn't Fox news that broke this story, it was ABC.

click the link I provided and you'll see a little of some of the stuff FOX has been breaking on Jeremiah Wright well before ABC started regurgitating it. btw...the link I provided is Part 2 of Fox attacks Obama.

Bottom line, I'm not interested at all in where Obama goes to church. I am very interested in whether he has the judgment to be an effective President. Based upon this incident, I have to say that I'm pretty concerned that he does not.

I'm sure your concern is well placed. I don't think we're doing all that well as a country right now and the next person in charge has a very tough road ahead of them. I'd suggest you read what the man himself has been saying about all this and maybe hear what he has to say tomorrow. Do some bumping around the web and see if you can alleviate or confirm your doubts/concerns about his judgment or lack there of. I hope that everyone does some research beyond the news for ratings shows and makes an informed decision.

STOMP

[Stepping Razor]

Obama's giving a huge speech tomorrow at 7:15am PDT, promising to address the issue head-on. IMO this is make or break for his candidacy. I hope he'll be able to take this whole Wright brouhaha and flip it around, use it to make a JFK-like statement on race, religion, and politics that will cement his victory. If, on the other hand, he's not able to address this controversy effectively (whether or not we think the underlying controversy has merit or not) I think his candidacy will be in trouble... not vis a vis Clinton, who is drawing dead already and has zero chance of winning the Dem primary, but against McCain in the general.

Hopefully we'll look back in 50 years at tomorrow morning's speech as the moment that President Obama had what it takes to be a great leader for this country. We shall see...

Stepping Razor

[crandc]

Does anyone think it's an accident that this story, months old, hit the radar on the 5th anniversary of the invasion of Iraq? It has Karl Rove all over it:
-- Relentlessly attack the character of the opponent. Use innuendo, guilt by association, rumor, even untruth.
-- Seek to define the opponent before he/she can define him/herself to the public.
-- All fear, all the time.

John McCain does not have to answer for every statement ever made by every preacher at every church he ever attended. No one hears their tapes, do we? CNN ran a poll on whether Obama was patriotic enough to be president. Did they run such a poll on McCain? Because he's white! His Americanism is taken for granted. But Barack Obama? Barak HUSSEIN Obama? He's a secret Muslim! He's a Black Nationalist! He's anti-white! He's anti-American!

Now we are starting to hear Obama is arrogant and all the usual suspects are parroting this. After all, he thinks he can do the job better than a white person!

Ironically a lot of these attacks are bearing out some of what Pastor Wright said about the burden of race in this society.

McCain and the Republicans can't run on record. They'll lose in a landslide. Does anyone really think that those who have been so wrong on Iraq can convince people to trust them for another 100 years of war? While people lose jobs, homes, retirement, can they be convinced that more tax cuts for the rich and $300 for the rest of us is the answer?

e_blazer, I am asking you this in all seriousness. Are you equally disturbed by a preacher who calls for a nuclear war against Iran to launch Armageddon, during which all Jews who do not convert to Christianity will be slaughtered? Do you think I, an independent committed to no candidate, can vote for anyone endorsed by such an individual?

I am going to quote from a very consevative columnist, Debra Saunders. A full out Bush supporting liberal hating anti-Muslim etc etc. Ms. Saunders wrote:

I have white friends who argue that they would walk out of a church where the minister spouted hatred against racial minorities; hence, they expect that Obama would do the same.

I appreciate their point, but they ignore a certain reality about being black in America. To wit: In certain venues, a black man is going to hear anti-white comments from African Americans who have not had the extra something it takes to get ahead in this world. After a while, the buzz becomes background noise. That doesn't mean Obama buys into all their grievances - although he probably believes some and understands more.

Of course, most white voters don't want to elect a president who bears them ill will. That's why Jesse Jackson was never viable. He overplayed the race card. He sang a one-note whine of endless victimhood, which gave little recognition to the many opportunities now open to black Americans.

On the other hand, Obama is a viable candidate because he is a black man with a foot in two worlds. With his Harvard law degree and Senate seat, Barack appeals to white America as a black success story. But even if Obama has grown beyond grievances, that doesn't mean Obama has moved beyond recognizing the grievances of underclass African Americans, who have fared less well in a world that can look at them with hostility.

It is simply no more possible to nominate a black candidate who does not recognize racial animus than it is to nominate a female candidate who, her Yale law degree and Senate seat notwithstanding, does not recognize the gender hurdles facing some American women.

I've written whole columns against America haters who blamed this country - instead of the terrorists - for the 9/11 attacks. If Wright were running for office, he would get the full treatment for his race-baiting and delusional ramblings and for rhetoric that ill serves Chicago's black community. But as long as Wright is not drafting policy for Obama, he is entitled to his uninformed opinion.

KMD, does that answer some of your questions maybe?

[It's_GO_Time]

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/play...26736&src=news

Edit: That was a live link to Obama's speech today . . . it over.

[Stepping Razor]

I thought that was an amazing and brave speech. I have no idea what its political impact will be -- what do you think, E Blazer, as an intelligent and thoughtful critic? -- but I think he just proved that he has the fortitude and courage of character to be a great president. Every political consultant in the world will have been telling him to play it safe by throwing Wright under the bus and trying to minimize the whole issue of race. Instead he swung for the fences, trying to flip this moment of personal political danger into an opportunity for our country to honestly address the bitter legacies of the past -- on all sides -- in order to finally transcend them.

Did he hit a home run or strike out?

I'd be interested to know what you all think. I deeply hope that it was a home run -- at this fraught moment in history, I'm not sure if we can afford for this man *not* to be our president.