[e_blazer1]

I just watched Obama's speech in its entirety, live on...you guessed it...Foxnews. I guess the networks still don't think it's much of a story.

It was an excellent and moving speech, well crafted and full of truth. Whether it will serve his purpose remains to be seen. In the right context, perhaps given a year ago at the outset of his campaign before the crapola hit the fan, I would have called it a great speech. As it is, given in this moment as damage control, I'm not sure that it's going to resonate in the same fashion and I'm not sure that the majority of people who were offended by the Wright clips are going to be satisfied. Personally, I came away scratching my head. I think Obama could either be the worst man for America at this point in her history...or the absolute best. I'm going to be following his campaign closely in the next few months.

[Stepping Razor]

Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Darius

SR: any chance you have a video link to the speech . . . I only caught half of it.

Here ya go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by crandc

e_blazer, I am asking you this in all seriousness. Are you equally disturbed by a preacher who calls for a nuclear war against Iran to launch Armageddon, during which all Jews who do not convert to Christianity will be slaughtered? Do you think I, an independent committed to no candidate, can vote for anyone endorsed by such an individual?

That you would even ask me this in less that "all seriousness", after all the years that you've read what I've posted on this board and on ESPN, is deeply offensive to me, crandc. Since you did ask seriously, I'll give you the patently obvious answer: of course I'm equally disturbed by any preacher who would suggest such a thing...probably more disturbed by it than I was by Wright's various comments.

You seem to have a particularly tin ear in understanding what it is that disturbs me about Obama's relationship with Wright and his church and why I find it different than McCain having the support of some nutball preacher who, apparently, holds these views. I explained it pretty thoroughly in one of my posts last night, so I'm not going to do it again except to say that there is no record of a longterm relationship between McCain and this guy, while there is a 20 year history between Obama and Wright. If anybody can show me anything that suggests McCain holds similar views or even that he knew of this pastor's positions prior to his one-time meeting with him at a campaign rally, then I will condemn McCain in the same manner that I have Obama.

To me, it comes down to whether it is plausible that Obama did not know of the racially divisive positions of Wright and Trinity United Church of Christ after attending there for 20 years. In today's speech, Obama talked about how black churches deal with an economically and socially diverse black community and that they naturally include folks who still have bitterness over the racial discrimination that is undeniable in our history. He also talked about the wonderful work that this church and Reverend Wright have done in this community. I have absolutely no problems with any of that. I'll even accept until proved otherwise that Obama did not see the sermons that contained most inflammatory of Wright's remarks.

What does cause me major concern is not simply the material contained in the excerpts we've seen from Wright's sermons, but the racially divisive attitude that seems pervasive at Trinity United Church of Christ. I've looked over their website and I'm concerned by materials that would seem to me to want to continue, rather than move beyond, a sense of black separateness in our society. As an example, take a look at the attached pdf that outlines the "Black Value System" as taught at that church:

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/...e%20system.pdf

It is his twenty year association with this church and Reverend Wright that causes me to wonder if he is being completely forthcoming in the eloquent speech he gave this morning. I would have loved this speech had it included some discussion of the imperfections of Trinity United Church of Christ and a need for the church to be a leader to its congregation in moving forward, never forgetting the past, but understanding that a future of racial tolerance must be built on hope, not bitterness and hate.

[Stepping Razor]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

I just watched Obama's speech in its entirety, live on...you guessed it...Foxnews. I guess the networks still don't think it's much of a story.

It was an excellent and moving speech, well crafted and full of truth. Whether it will serve his purpose remains to be seen. In the right context, perhaps given a year ago at the outset of his campaign before the crapola hit the fan, I would have called it a great speech. As it is, given in this moment as damage control, I'm not sure that it's going to resonate in the same fashion and I'm not sure that the majority of people who were offended by the Wright clips are going to be satisfied. Personally, I came away scratching my head. I think Obama could either be the worst man for America at this point in her history...or the absolute best. I'm going to be following his campaign closely in the next few months.

That sounds about right. I think I like it *more* because of the more contentious and politically dangerous context in which it was delivered. But I think you're right that it's hard to say whether it will work as "damage control." Brave and important doesn't necessarily translate to politically effective.

Just out of curiosity, what was the reaction from the talking heads like on Fox? I'm guessing not good.

Stepping Razor

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by Stepping Razor

Just out of curiosity, what was the reaction from the talking heads like on Fox? I'm guessing not good.

Stepping Razor

I didn't watch much of the post-speech commentary. I caught a couple minutes of Brit Hume (which was about all I could take) and he essentially said things that were similar to my reacion. Good speech, well crafted, probably won't bring back people who were offended by Wright's comments.

[Minstrel]

It's a well-written speech, but I don't think there's anything brave about it at all. I think it was quite pandering, especially the part where he implicitly shovels all the blame for the Middle East conflict on "radical" Islam. That's the sort of silly simplification that Obama has generally stayed away from (he struck me as being one of the few candidates who could give a nuanced answer without seeming to hedge) and it seemed designed to say, "See? I hold all the simplistic American beliefs! Our ally Isreal is always right. Nowhere but America could my story be true."

I realize that politicians need to spout the standard lines to be electable, but in some sense I thought Obama was different. That he could speak about complexities, intelligently. As STOMP said...what Reverend Wright said has some truth or, at least, some valid perspectives. There are also other things that are just way too extreme and divisive. To essentially just say, "I've condemned him completely but he used to be a nice guy"...well, it's too typically politician.

I still hope he wins, and maybe you have to be trite to even be elected and get your chance to be a great President. But this speech was far from inspirational to me, unfortunately. And I say that as a varyingly (over time) wide-eyed Obama supporter.

[SodaPopinski]

Thanks for the link to the speech, SR.

Very inspiring.

I truly believe Obama can spark a new era in our country's history. I hope I get the chance to find out.

-Pop

[crandc]

e_blazer, the reason I asked the question to you was not because I in any way think you share those hateful views. But I have not heard any pundit of any persuasion ask how Jews or Catholics can suppport McCain based on Hagee. Yes, you say there is a difference, Obama had a longer relationship with Wright. But Wright is one person. McCain has sought out the endorsement of those whom 8 years ago he called bigots and agents of intolerance. Bush before invading Iraq consulted Pat Robertson, an America-hater who blamed gays, women's rights and teaching science for 9/11. There is a double standard. It is OK, or at least no big deal, to preach hate of some people but not others. And white clergy and pols are judged by different standards.

Well, Obama just said it's not OK to preach hate of anyone and more power to him.

As for his church serving the Black community, where's the fuss? They are in that community, they serve it. The Chinese Catholic church in SF advertises themselves as serving the Chinese Christian community. The synagogue I used to attend served the Jewish community.

Does anyone here think it's just by chance that these months old tapes, some years old, were aired on the Iraq invasion anniversary?

[blazerboy30]

Originally Posted by STOMP

I'd suggest you read what the man himself has been saying about all this and maybe hear what he has to say tomorrow.

STOMP

I agree that everybody should do as much research as possible before choosing a candidate. However, I personally care much more about his actions than what he has been saying, or what he said in his speech today.

The biggest concern FOR ME in all of this is how Obama can support a preacher, and attend sermons for 20 years while this strong anti-white, anti-america message is preached.

The fact that Obama attended the sermons for 20 years does not necessarily prove that he agrees with Wright's messages, but TO ME it shows that he does not strongly disagree with them... strongly enough to change churches or pastors (not religions).

I absolutely do not care what religion Obama supports, but I very much care whether or not he strongly disagrees with the anti-white, anti-america message that was being sent. And attending these sermons for 20 years does not do much to convince me that he strongly disagrees with the message.

If my pastor continually gave racist, sexist, anti-gay, or anti-anybody sermons, you can be sure I DEFINITELY would not continue to attend that church or pastor's sermons, because I STRONGLY disagree and disapprove with those preachings.

I would be very surprised if anybody on this forum would continue to support and attend the preachings of a spiritual leader that continually sent strongly racist and sexist messages. And I am confused why Obama shouldn't be intensly questioned about his continued support of somebody like Wright.

[e_blazer1]

I'm not going to get further at this time into a discussion of McCain and a couple of conservative pastors who have offered their endorsements of his candidacy. I don't know enough about the circumstances of their endorsements or alleged anti-Catholic statements Hagee may have made. A quick Google search indicates that he's received awards from Jewish organizations for his support of Israel, so I don't know what the issue is there either. That said, there's a huge difference between accepting an endorsement from someone and attending and supporting a church and its pastor for twenty years.

As for serving the Black community, I've said repeatedly that there's nothing wrong in that...in fact it's great. But if that serving comes at the expense of filling the heads of the congregation with divisive dogma, continually playing up racial injustices and fostering continued racial tensions, then there's a big problem. I just don't know how to look at the sermon clips we've seen and interpret them any other way. I don't know how to read the "Black Value System" in any other way. So, yes, I do have a problem with Trinity United Church of Christ. Since Obama decided to support the church by continuing to attend and donate to it for twenty years, and since he chose to place Rev. Wright on his spirtual advisory board even after his admitted knowledge of some of Wright's outrageous sermons, I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to accept without question the statements he makes in his speech about now wanting to lead the country into a new era.

As far as how the media came to choose this time period to raise this issue, you'd have to ask them. The ABC piece I saw aired on March 13 and I believe the anniversary of the Iraq War is March 19. Could Karl Rove or the McCain camp have tipped off ABC? Sure. Could Hillary have done it? I suppose she has as much or more to gain right now as anyone. Or maybe it's just something that ABC has been investigating for a while and this is when they chose to break it. I guess we'll never know for sure.

[STOMP]

Originally Posted by blazerboy30

If my pastor continually gave racist, sexist, anti-gay, or anti-anybody sermons, you can be sure I DEFINITELY would not continue to attend that church or pastor's sermons, because I STRONGLY disagree and disapprove with those preachings.

I would be very surprised if anybody on this forum would continue to support and attend the preachings of a spiritual leader that continually sent strongly racist and sexist messages. And I am confused why Obama shouldn't be intensly questioned about his continued support of somebody like Wright.

right, it's hard to fathom why anyone would. But since Obama has specifically said that the sort of Anti-Amaercan clips making the rounds were not the norm for Wright, why are you saying that he continually did?

STOMP

[It's_GO_Time]

Originally Posted by STOMP

right, it's hard to fathom why anyone would. But since Obama has specifically said that the sort of Anti-Amaercan clips making the rounds were not the norm for Wright, why are you saying that he continually did?

STOMP

Thanks for that because I was wondered where that came from (continual anti-us, anti-white message) . I've only listened to the speech once, but I recall Obama directly addressing this point and saying the overall sermons week in and week out were not about being anti-us.