[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by STOMP

he did in college... sort of. My friend's Dad was a peace loving hippy at Princeton and lived in the same dorm. According to him, Don bought booze many times and invited people over for a party. They'd leave as soon as the livations were gone and generally avoided him because he was thought of as a dork.

Einstein, who lived in Princeton for awhile, was also considered a dork by many. Funny how public opinion changes over the years.

[dudleysghost]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

...

And so, what am I to make of Obama having a close relationship with Reverend Wright and attending this church for 20 years? Sure, he can say (and I tend to believe him) that he disagrees vehemently with the fiery words of Pastor Wright contained in those clips. He can note that Wright is a complex man and that he has much good in him in spite of his failings, and I believe that to be true. Obama can tell us of the wonderful work the church has done in the community it serves and I will agree that it is laudable. And all of that aside, I'm left with a question as to how such an intelligent, influential and principled man such as Obama can attend this church for twenty years, disagree vehemently with some of Wright's teachings on what is such a sensitive and important subject as racial anger, and yet do nothing to either affect change in those areas of disagreement or choose to leave the church. From my frame of reference, this is a major problem.

It definitely will be people like you, registered independent voters, who determine the outcome of this election. The Obama will get huge Democrat turnout, McCain will get somewhat less from the Republicans, but he can still win if he wins the middle. That's his major advantage from winning his primary earlier. While Obama has to appease his party core by trashing free trade and making pullout promises on the war, McCain gets to stop kissing up to guys like Rev Hagee and Falwell, and gets to start positioning himself in the moderate middle.

So it will fall on Obama to convince people like you to vote for him. So ask yourself, what do you really think it means that Obama chose that church and continued to go to it? You admit to being in the inquisitive stage still on it, so if you try to put yourself in his shoes, how would you explain it?

I was also left wondering. For a bit, I suspected that Obama joined the church as a political tool. Since he doesn't seem to agree with some of their ideology, as we both noticed, that made me suspect he joined to gain access to the churches resources and it's black street cred to help carry him into the state senate. But his membership in the church preceded his political career by so many years (first elected to state senate in 96, joined church in 91 I believe), that that explanation doesn't seem plausible.

What does seem plausible though is exactly what Obama has said. Like you pointed out, the church does a lot of good things. In a poor community like that, it is sometimes the leading institution standing against many very serious social problems. Many congregants are now vocally complaining that their church is being mischaracterized in the media, because it is about a whole lot more than what is said. Obama seemed to compartmentalize the teachings of the church, saying that he heard the gospels of Jesus and a message of love and mercy. I don't doubt Obama's sincerity when he says he didn't hear the particular speeches going around youtube right now, but I also feel certain that he must have at least been aware of the more radical separatist attitudes there as well. He acknowledges this and condemns it specifically, but notes that he also understands where it comes from, a feeling of black anger that many centrist white voters aren't totally aware of.

So he could have left the church, but it makes sense when he explains that he wouldn't because of all the good things it and it's pastor do for the community. The radicalism is a serious flaw, but does it follow that the only course of action for a person of conscience in that situation is to leave? To throw out the baby and the bathwater? In this context, after the revulsion of the initial reaction, is it still really that troubling for you?

In any case, I don't know if Obama tried to change the church's attitude from within, but I totally disagree with the statement that Obama hasn't tried to effect change in the area of racial division. The main reason I think he will get past this is because he has tried to do exactly that, not within the church but the community first, and now within the entire nation. His whole campaign for president now, and in campaigns past (with an array of statements and two books on the record) has been a rejection of the kind of ideology that leads to separatism and identity politics. He has shown very clearly and very publicly that he rejects that ideology. Rightfully, IMO, that should insulate him from the damage of being associated with a person, however tightly, who espouses an offensive ideology that Obama very clearly does not share.

[STOMP]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Einstein, who lived in Princeton for awhile, was also considered a dork by many. Funny how public opinion changes over the years.

I was just countering your assertion that Rummy wouldn't want to have hippies as friends with a story I'd heard. He tried but for some reason he didn't click with at least a couple of them.

Of course being a second hand account you don't have to believe it

STOMP

[HB]

Originally Posted by Talkhard

Actually, a lot of people have been saying it. It's absurd to call your grandmother a racist simply because she gets nervous when some black men walk by her. Here's what Jesse Jackson once said on the very same subject:



http://www.boston.com/news/globe/edi...elf_inflicted/

So if a big healthy black guy like Jesse Jackson could feel nervous, why couldn't Obama's frail old grandmother?? The comparison between her and the despicable Rev. Wright is ridiculous, and shows that Obama has very little understanding of the real world.

So you are telling me you know his grandmother better than he does? By the way stop taking his comments out of context. He never threw his grandmother under any bus like you implied. He simply said just like Wright he disagrees with some of the things she has said.

[crandc]

Originally Posted by HB

So you are telling me you know his grandmother better than he does? By the way stop taking his comments out of context. He never threw his grandmother under any bus like you implied. He simply said just like Wright he disagrees with some of the things she has said.

Come, come, HB. You don't really think Talkhard would have read or listened to Obama's speech? Of course not. He doesn't need to go to the original source, whether on Obama, Darwin, global warming, or gays. Just copy/paste some web site.

On a serious note. First, for those who are seriously evaluating candidates, great. In fact I know I sound like an Obama defender, and there are things I like about him, but I am not decided. But I think he answered the question as to why he stayed in the church for 20 years. The pastor is more than just the few sound bites on You Tube and the church is more than a handful or remarks by the pastor. There are no perfect candidates, right? You pick the one best for you. Obama said clearly he found enough good in a church and in a pastor to stay, although neither was perfect. Agree or disagree, but I think he did clearly address that issue.

[It's_GO_Time]

Originally Posted by HB

So you are telling me you know his grandmother better than he does? By the way stop taking his comments out of context. He never threw his grandmother under any bus like you implied. He simply said just like Wright he disagrees with some of the things she has said.

The problem I have with the analogy of grandmother and pastor is that you don't choose your grandmother, you do choose your pastor.

On top of that, a pastor is considered a leader of a community, who, in their profession, conveys their thoughts to a community in a passionate and influnecial way. They are in fact trying to pass on their beliefs to the community.

I enjoyed Obama's speech but thought he missed the boat with the analogy to grandmother. Also thought his last story to end it all didn't have the wow impact, like I have just been enlightened, that I was hoping for when you hear someone say let me end this with a story.

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by dudleysghost

So he could have left the church, but it makes sense when he explains that he wouldn't because of all the good things it and it's pastor do for the community. The radicalism is a serious flaw, but does it follow that the only course of action for a person of conscience in that situation is to leave? To throw out the baby and the bathwater? In this context, after the revulsion of the initial reaction, is it still really that troubling for you?

So, what's the ratio of good deeds required to offset filling the minds of a 6,000 member congregation on a seemingly fairly regular basis with inflammatory and divisive messages from the pastor? That's the part that doesn't square with me. I'd think that a guy who has written two books and made a point in his campaign of helping to overcome racial division would be particularly sensitive to this topic in his own church. It's not as if it would have taken a lot of effort for Obama to have met with Wright in private and discussed the matter. Obviously, I don't know that such a meeting never took place, but it's pretty clear that if it did, it had little impact on Wright's message. And, if you've gone to the effort of explaining to your pastor your views on such matters and yet he doesn't change his message, how can a person of good conscience, particularly one with presidential aspirations, not leave?

His whole campaign for president now, and in campaigns past (with an array of statements and two books on the record) has been a rejection of the kind of ideology that leads to separatism and identity politics. He has shown very clearly and very publicly that he rejects that ideology. Rightfully, IMO, that should insulate him from the damage of being associated with a person, however tightly, who espouses an offensive ideology that Obama very clearly does not share.

For most people, actions speak way louder than words. I'm of the opinion that for a lot of swing voters, concern over this issue isn't going to go away. There's a lot of time until November, but these kind of doubts remain seated in one's gut.

[e_blazer1]

Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Darius

The problem I have with the analogy of grandmother and pastor is that you don't choose your grandmother, you do choose your pastor.

On top of that, a pastor is considered a leader of a community, who, in their profession, conveys their thoughts to a community in a passionate and influnecial way. They are in fact trying to pass on their beliefs to the community.

I enjoyed Obama's speech but thought he missed the boat with the analogy to grandmother. Also thought his last story to end it all didn't have the wow impact, like I have just been enlightened, that I was hoping for when you hear someone say let me end this with a story.

The grandmother analogy was a clinker, as was the statement that nearly everyone disagrees with something their pastor says from time to time. There's a big difference between thinking, for example, that the pastor's teaching on some theological point misses the mark and having a pastor who is saying things that foster racial anger and indignation in the congregation.

[HB]

Come on folks lets be serious here, who tells their pastor what to preach on Sunday? Even if Obama disagrees with what he says, there was not much he could have done about it. Wright has been vilified by the media, and some of it justified, but its not like the man hasnt done any good.

[blazerboy30]

Originally Posted by HB

Come on folks lets be serious here, who tells their pastor what to preach on Sunday? Even if Obama disagrees with what he says, there was not much he could have done about it.

Really? You mean the members of this church are FORCED to attend and listen to the preachings? This church is even scarier than I had originally thought.

[Talkhard]

Originally Posted by e_blazer1

The grandmother analogy was a clinker, as was the statement that nearly everyone disagrees with something their pastor says from time to time. There's a big difference between thinking, for example, that the pastor's teaching on some theological point misses the mark and having a pastor who is saying things that foster racial anger and indignation in the congregation.

Bingo. That's one of the things I find very objectionable about Obama's speech. He keeps saying "this is just like this," when it's clearly not. Theological hair-splitting is a far cry from shouting, "God D--- America!" from the pulpit. And it's hypocritical to surround yourself with 8 American flags for a national TV audience when at the same time you refuse to wear the American flag on your lapel because of "what it stands for." Talk about using the flag to save your own butt!

[HB]

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